M9 and M9A Procurement & Acceptance

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DutchRailnut
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by DutchRailnut » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:09 pm

nothing like making a Bacon eggs and cheese between Branchville and Cannondale ;-)
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Doc Emmet Brown
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by Doc Emmet Brown » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:56 am

Why is it whenever I see the word Procure or Procurement I Think of J.W.
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lirr42
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by lirr42 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:54 am

The documents prepared for the LIRR's September Committee meeting contained new details about the M9 procurement. We've been talking about this in the Metro-North Forum, but in case you don't go over there too often, here are some of the new details:

The LIRR is happy to announce that Kawasaki Rail Car has been awarded an $1.8 billion contract to design, manufacture, test, and deliver a base order of 92 cars (with added options for up to 584 cars if the LIRR and MNCR so desired).

The final proposal that is set to go before the MTA board is for 92 M9 cars at a price not to exceed $1,834,888,620. The base order would provide the LIRR with enough cars to replace the aging M3 fleet on a one-to-one basis.

The contract also includes additional options that the LIRR (and Metro-North) would be able to exercise if they wanted to get more M9 cars (presumably to cover expansions in service, like East Side Access). Together, the LIRR and Metro-North would be able to order a grand total of 584 M9 cars from Kawasaki. The $1.8 billion figure above includes all base order cars and all the option cars (no, the LIRR isn't paying $1.8 billion for only 92 cars (that's $20 million per car!)).

The money for the 92 car base order is coming from the MTA's 2009-2014 Capital Program. Funding for any future option cars will come from future Capital Programs.

It should also be noted that this contract does not include the M9-A bid, that contract will be awarded at a separate point later down the line. The M9-A cars will be specially modified cars for the LIRR that will be interoperable with the M9's.

MattW
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by MattW » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:16 pm

I should probably ask this here instead of your blog, but what's the difference in the M9 and M9-A? If they're truly getting the M8's third-rail shoe, then are the M9-As getting just an LIRR shoe?

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by Backshophoss » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:10 pm

The biggest difference is the air brake setup used by MN and how the cab signal/ATS gear is setup
MN's air brake specs allow for working air brakes on tow-ins,LIRR's air brake setup allows only for Emergency or release of
the brakes when towed. All of LIRR's M-7's were delivered by flatcar,all of MN/CDOT's M-8's arrived on their own wheels,
and the LIRR retired M-1's,were put on flatcars for the trip to be scrapped,the retied M-2/4/6's left for the scrapper on
their own wheels.
The current shoe beam/shoe mount used on the M-7/8's is adaptable for overrunning or underrunning 3rd rail shoes
will most likely to be used for the M-9/9a's.
Doudt that LIRR's M-9's will ever show up in Harmon or Southeast(Brewster)
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by F-line to Dudley via Park » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:14 pm

Backshophoss wrote:The biggest difference is the air brake setup used by MN and how the cab signal/ATS gear is setup
MN's air brake specs allow for working air brakes on tow-ins,LIRR's air brake setup allows only for Emergency or release of
the brakes when towed. All of LIRR's M-7's were delivered by flatcar,all of MN/CDOT's M-8's arrived on their own wheels,
and the LIRR retired M-1's,were put on flatcars for the trip to be scrapped,the retied M-2/4/6's left for the scrapper on
their own wheels.
The current shoe beam/shoe mount used on the M-7/8's is adaptable for overrunning or underrunning 3rd rail shoes
will most likely to be used for the M-9/9a's.
Doudt that LIRR's M-9's will ever show up in Harmon or Southeast(Brewster)
There any reason why the two roads insist on such different air brake setups? Doesn't seem like a difference that "must be so" on a combo order.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by MattAmity90 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:19 am

Just like the M1/M3 cars being put together in a consist and being able to operate in a mix, will the M9 be able to operate with the M7 cars? Like let's say they have a 12 car train, and 6 of the cars are of M7 (3 married pairs) and the other 6 are M9 (also 3 married pairs). Will it be possible to do that? They did put together M1 cars with M3 cars.
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lirr42
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by lirr42 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:00 am

No, as per the RFP, the cars do not need to be interoperable.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by Head-end View » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:29 pm

Lirr42, you quoted the published info as saying that the base order of 92 M-9's for LIRR will replace the fleet of M-3's on a one-for-one basis. How is that possible when there are approx. 174 M-3 cars? Or did I misunderstand what I read?

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by DutchRailnut » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:34 pm

you misunderstand, the entire order is for max total of over 500 cars between LIRR and MNCR to replace M3's and to add for ESA needs.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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MattW
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by MattW » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:03 pm

The way the post is worded, it sounds like the LIRR will use both the M9 and M9A, is that true? That's what my first question was really based around.

NH2060
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by NH2060 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:58 pm

MattW wrote:The way the post is worded, it sounds like the LIRR will use both the M9 and M9A, is that true? That's what my first question was really based around.
Correct. The base order is for 92 M9s with options for additional M9s for LIRR and MNR (if the latter wanted to jump onboard). MNR would not get M9-As. The M9-A's would be built strictly for LIRR to operate in tandem with the M9s and would be a separate contract for a later date down the road whenever that may be.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by DutchRailnut » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:53 am

Wrong, the M-9 is LIRR, the M-9a is MNCR. as has been past practice on M-1 and M-1a / M-3 and M-3a and lastly the M-7 and M-7a
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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inthebag
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by inthebag » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:25 am

I agree with Dutch. The RFP was very misleading. There's no way an M-9A designated car would be for LIRR.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by freightguy » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:48 pm

IMHO, MN makes out better piggybacking off the LIRR order to work out some of the bugs. In the late 90's Kawasaki did C3 double decker modifications on New York and Atlantic property in Yard A. This was done because the LIRR(unions)didn't want a non-union shop performing work on LIRR property. They set up and area in Yard A before LIRR took property back for East Side Access.

I'm in suprised the M9 was awarded to Kawaski being that Metro North's M8 order was awarded to them. I thought the M9 order would revert back to Bombardier. Dutch may verify this, I have heard mechanical people say they would be suprised to see the M8 fleet stay in working order for the next 15 years. A lot of issues with the New Haven M8 fleet.
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