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  • LIRR History (Valley Stream) and Surrounding areas.

  • Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

Moderator: Liquidcamphor

 #862987  by EdM
 
I may have confused Jamaica and Hawthorne avenues..... since I left VS in 1965, of all the things I have lost, I miss my mind the least.....I do remember some under the RR coal facility, east of Rockaway, but not where it was, think it may have been south of Hawthorne but on the Malverne spur (guess that is known as the west Hempstead line) but would not be surprised to be found wrong. I gave a printing press that VSCHS had given me [7x11 Pearl or GMG Jobber] to a guy who lived on Hawthorne east of the spur... his father owned a machine shop there...... Ed
 #863119  by workextra
 
On the West Hempstead branch viaduct above Veterans bus company, The structure is double track. Only the south "east" track is used which is the single track West Hempstead branch branch, The north "west" track is the freight drop off. It was for Long Island Coal Co, Or Valley Stream Coal Co, I forget which. Till this day you can still the pulley system and it's wire cable in addition to the coal shoots. The real bonus is the amount of coal that is still up there. On the above linked map dragged down, You can see above the scrap dealer, the black spot on the unused north "west" track, This is the coal shoot and the remaining coal. Continuing further down the branch, The switch to lumber yard is long removed.

Back to the waterway discussion.
The steam that ran from Hopples, North into the lake "the beach" then under the red bridge in the park. now a stream again it travels north of Hendrickson Ave. (State Park, Roomer has it was this land was once owned by the Fletcher family???), Just north of Hendrickson Ave. at the entrance of the state park a small creek flows into this stream from the west.
The larger stream Parrnell Corona Ave, goes under the S.S.Parkway and as far north as Arlington Ave in Franklin Sq. (Behind Carvel.).
The R.O.W of this stream is visible for another 2 block north to Park Avenue. Where it becomes completely buried.
 #863184  by feisner
 
There sure are a lot of mysteries in this area. I don't know what they're calling it, but the waterway between Emerson and Cornwell is not a stream, it's a sump. Maybe at some point it was a natural brook or stream but it hasn't been for a long, long time, at least not since I moved to V.S.

I'm still trying to figure out where the old LIRR station was back in 1869, btw. You know...every time they renovate the V.S. station they have it open for fewer and fewer hours. At least they did a nice job with the mosaic in the waiting room; I'll give them that much credit.

Fran From Valley Stream :wink:
 #863230  by Sir Ray
 
Till this day you can still the pulley system and it's wire cable in addition to the coal shoots. The real bonus is the amount of coal that is still up there. On the above linked map dragged down, You can see above the scrap dealer, the black spot on the unused north "west" track, This is the coal shoot and the remaining coal.
Looking at Bing, for some reason I just can't see it. I think I see it, just south of where the tracks cross E. Valley Stream Blvd, and where it looks like the West Track just sort of peters out (the usually quirkiness of Bing - I pan in one way, the former Inflight Newspaper site is cleared, but no construction: I shift over a bit to look at Lynbrook, then I pan back West - bang, same location now shows the Townhouse complex on S. Cottage & Hawthorne half built (and I didn't realize how tall that boundary wall is on the North side of the complex - Wow!) - some funky image stitching there, Microsoft!
Continuing further down the branch, The switch to lumber yard is long removed.
Yeah, that was the only place (when it was Baisly) to reliably catch a freight car (Boxcar, or toward the end Centerbeam flat) within easy walking distance - but not for years now.
There sure are a lot of mysteries in this area.
Eh, probably no more than any area with 200+ years of history. I'd hate to think of European or Asian urban areas with Thousands of years of history behind them. Heck, Kevin Walsh has been publishing NYC quirks and oddities in his Forgotten NY website for years (a decade?) now, and he's no where near the only one.
I don't know what they're calling it, but the waterway between Emerson and Cornwell is not a stream, it's a sump. Maybe at some point it was a natural brook or stream but it hasn't been for a long, long time.
Man, I may have to make this a crusade. Anyway: 1st it definitely WAS a stream, as witness the 1914 Valley Stream Historic Map posted earlier in this thread (aside - it's odd not seeing Sunrise Highway in it's usual place, but even weirder seeing the Brooklyn Ave fork (where the fire house is now, and the Dunkin Donuts, and oh, look, that darn stream too - owned by Queens County Water Company then!) pretty much as it is now. 2nd FEMA certainly thinks it IS still a stream, and put it on their flood maps cross hatched as such even where the stream is not exposed (and you know - back in 2005 that block of Cornwell & E. Maple really did flood - I remember the water was up to the door of Seema Deli, and filled some of the homes' 'sunken' driveways on Maple). Now of course the FEMA interactive maps are off-line so I can't prove my point, possible because Chuckie Schumer is making FEMA redraw them or something.

BIG EDIT - so I got my chores for today out of the way (believe it or not), and since it is a pretty nice day (and I could use the exercise), I took a walk to the stream in question - first to Argyle where the stream goes underground (I noticed that that block of Argyle seems to have a lot of sidewalk half-barrel planters, BTW). I could see on the North Side of Argyle the stream entered a Culvert, and the wings and concrete cap made it look like a big one, but how big is a bit tough to guess on site since there's a black chain-link fence along the sidewalk preventing people from looking directly into the culvert - however, off to Bing, pan around a little, and bam - an Fall/Winter view with less vegation, and the culvert can be seen clearly. OK, things look good for debunking the sump theory, but could I trace the path further south? Yes, I could -on each cross street where the stream ROW would cross there's a large mid-block drainage grate on both sides of the road, and a Man-Hole cover (marked N.C. Drains) - the one on Merrick Road (as far as I went, since I then went to Li Wok's for the luncheon special) situated in the driveway behind the strip center that holds Seema Deli is a huge gaping hole - surprized nobody ripped their tires on that one going into the Driveway (maybe they did). This explains to me where some of the flooding comes from in that area, possibly this underground stream overflowing out the drainage gates (meaning in this Case FEMA was possibly right with its Flood Maps...something you don't want to say too loudly in Valley Stream these days). The village probably has the plans for this underground stream (I guess in a concrete pipe of rectangular cross-section with 'vaults' or chambers to service the cross street drains), but I'm not taking off from work to view them.

That Historic map also bears Edm out, as it shows a Trolley Line along 'Milton' (Jamaica Ave.) crossing into what would become the Village Green, but then was yet another part of the NY City watersystem (I wonder how upstate NY ownership maps look today, where NY City owns a ton of land in watershed areas)?

Another Edit - not hydro-related this time
Apparently there is a song Valley Stream, from a band Joy Zipper, off their 2004 album American Whip. Couldn't find samples, but with lyrics like this
You play the drums, I'll grow a beard
We're like two dinosaurs living here
In Valley Stream, Long Island
Not entirely sure it's favorable. :P
 #863314  by EdM
 
I checked the 1914 map... WOW.. The Keller place was still there off Corona in the 50's, probably still is and we knew it then as the Keller place. Not sure whether related to the famous BK of VSCHS fame, but probably..Our house and my Grandparents house on 20WSt Marks place (Dad sold in 52,it burned in the 80's,.... wonder if the new owners ever found my fathers' 29 Ford buried in the drive with some ceremony in '36) were not built until sometime in the twenties..complete with chicken coop and "path"..tho the path was moved inside by the time I apppeared but I as an infant still got eggs and remember the chickens....
Interesting that the map shows an aquaduct running N/S immediately west of Hicks street. While I cannot confirm it, I do know that if we rode our bikes wide open west on Mineola, crossing Hicks St, you got a ride up a hill immeditely west of hicks street and then a dive down, maybe 10 feet into the woods, there was definately a berm there runnning n/s as late as the late 40's... Ed
 #863340  by feisner
 
When I was a little girl I found a silver-plated spoon buried behind the barbecue in our backyard...not too dramatic but I'm sure there are all sorts of things several feet under throughout the neighborhood. Maybe some of them should stay buried. :( Remember the "Honeymoon Killers?" They lived on Adeline Place when they decided to retire for a while. Many bodies were found interred below their cement basement floor. I drove by that house a couple of months ago. The owner has many statuettes of angels in the bay window and I can sort of understand why.


I do see the lower part of stream that has been a sump since we moved here, but the map doesn't show my immediate neighborhood at all. I'm on Home between Wheeler and Albermarle). I've heard that it was part of a corn field a couple of generations ago; maybe there were no streets there in 1914.
 #863380  by EdM
 
the family lawyer,named Harris, lived on east Home st and I was there as late as the early 70's, and my I thought that Home St is bisected by that brook, i.e. no access Cornwell/Emerson... And that brook (sump) was what I was referring to before, not as one of the two streams caused by the fork north of Hendrickson Ave... sorry to not have been more clear.. I will have to take a run in to VS from the wilds of Islip in the near future.. the wife comes from one of the attached houses on Dartmouth St, so it should be do able...ed
 #863382  by feisner
 
EdM wrote:the family lawyer,named Harris, lived on east Home st and I was there as late as the early 70's, and my I thought that Home St is bisected by that brook, i.e. no access Cornwell/Emerson... And that brook (sump) was what I was referring to before, not as one of the two streams caused by the fork north of Hendrickson Ave... sorry to not have been more clear.. I will have to take a run in to VS from the wilds of Islip in the near future.. the wife comes from one of the attached houses on Dartmouth St, so it should be do able...ed
It is bisected; East of the sump Home Street is part of Malverne. But there is a footpath across (one of only two) and I frequently bike across. I envy people who live adjacent to the sump; it's a wonderfully bucolic existence. But I don't envy their being in the flood zone, which we narrowly escaped.

Any time you want to take a walk around Valley Stream I'd be happy to join you.Just send me a message or something...I'm not quite sure how that is done on this discussion board. I moved back to be with Mom after my father passed away, and I have been making the most of living here ever since. I have to say that it isn't true at all that you can't go home again... :wink:
 #863422  by nyandw
 
feisner wrote:I'm still trying to figure out where the old LIRR station was back in 1869, btw. You know...every time they renovate the V.S. station they have it open for fewer and fewer hours. At least they did a nice job with the mosaic in the waiting room; I'll give them that much credit. Fran From Valley Stream :wink:
Fran: From Dave Keller's LIRR STATION HISTORY http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirrphotos/ ... ISTORY.pdf

S. S. R. R. SVC. BEGAN: 10/28/1867. DEPOT OPENED: 7/1869 WITH OPENING OF BRANCH TO FAR ROCKAWAY. BUILT INSIDE LEGS OF WYE. RAZED: 1933 FOR GRADE CROSSING ELIMINATION.

TEMPORARY STATION RELOCATED ON SHOO-FLY NORTH OF FORMER LOCATION IN SVC: 8/10/32 ACCOUNT GRADE CROSSING ELIMINATION. RELOCATED BACK SOUTH: 8/31/32.

3RD, ELEVATED, CENTER-ISLAND STRUCTURE NORTH OF FORMER LOCATION IN SVC: 2/7/33.

Steve
 #863546  by Dave Keller
 
A review of Bob Emery's hand-drawn map of Valley Stream indicates that the depot that is depicted at the start of this thread was built in 1881.

According to a SSRR map of the station and tracks appearing on Art Huneke's site:

http://arrts-arrchives.com/frbr121105.html Scroll all the way to the bottom to the pink map!

. . . . both the above mentioned depot AND the SSRR's original depot were built in the exact same location: within the wye and at the southwest quadrant of the crossing of Rockaway Ave.

Now . . .one of two things is possible. The original depot MAY have remained in situ and was heavily remodeled c. 1881 to the structure we see above. Or, Bob Emery may be correct and a 2nd depot constructed in 1881. Some of his data is incorrect so I don't wish to make a judgment.

Vincent Seyfried states that the SSRR's depot was opened in July, 1869, but Art's website has a newspaper clipping from August 11, 1869 stating that the depot and platforms WOULD SOON BE CONSTRUCTED, so there's a discrepancy there as well.

So, either the SSRR's depot was demolished and replaced c. 1881 by the depot in the above photo or the original depot was remodeled and stood until it's demolition for the grade elimination in 1933. 1869 to 1933 is NOT an unusual life span for a depot from back then, however a number of SSRR depots WERE replaced in the 1880s, such as Amityville, Patchogue, Oakdale, Islip and Babylon while others were just heavily remodeled.

Baldwin was built in 1867, and was remodeled in 1881 (hmmmmm . . . .a coincidence?) and replaced in 1917.

But, whether replaced or remodeled . . . . . to answer the initial question . . . . the SSRR depot was located within the wye at the southwest quadrant of the crossing of Rockaway Ave. in the same location as is depicted in the postcard view at the start of this thread.
 #863559  by feisner
 
Sorry guys, I know you're trying to be helpful but cannot read the railroad map (I got the photo from Art's web site) even though I have no problem with ordinary maps. Also - I don't understand all the "railroad jargon." What, exactly, is a "wye and what is a "shoo-fly?" I need a glossary, to say the least... :(

Fran from Valley Stream :wink:
 #863570  by Sir Ray
 
feisner wrote:Sorry guys, I know you're trying to be helpful but cannot read the railroad map (I got the photo from Art's web site) even though I have no problem with ordinary maps. Also - I don't understand all the "railroad jargon." What, exactly, is a "wye and what is a "shoo-fly?" I need a glossary, to say the least... :(
A Wye is simply a 'triangle' (3 sides) of trackage - in effect the Far Rockaway branch heading North splits into a Y shape, one leg allowing the trains to head West onto the Montauk line (this is the West leg of the Wye), and one leg allowing trains to head East onto the Montauk line (this is the East leg of the Wye) and the Montauk (the mainline in this case) goes East-West and forms the top of the triangle/Wye.

Shoo-fly generally referrs to a temporary track which bypasses the usual line for construction/repair purposes - for example, when parts of the LIRR Montauk line were being elevated, a temporary track was built adjacent to the ground (grade) level line (ROW), then trains used that temporary track while the old ground level line was removed and the new elevated structure built on the former ground level line ROW, and finally when the new line was finished on the new elevated structure, trains began using that and the temporary track (shoo-fly) was removed.

Also remember the LIRR 'mainline' thru Valley Stream is called the Montauk Branch* - the actual LIRR Mainline is the line that goes thru Floral Park/Mineola/Westbury and point East to Riverhead (and beyond, depending on the season nowadays). And the LIRR Central branch is a track which connects the Mainline and Montauk branches out around the Nassau/Suffolk border.
* I know I'm going to be corrected on this one - someone's going to say it's the Babylon Branch, not the Montauk Branch, and you know, they'd be right! See, this is what happens when you consolidate a bunch of formerly warring railroad companies, the largest one having made a conscious decision to avoid major LIRR population centers when planning it's original route. :P
 #863584  by feisner
 
Thanks for the glossary, lol. I never would have figured out this stuff for myself.

There are some things I think I have straight:

1) The Valley Stream track used to be at grade level, not elevated.

2) The station has been rebuilt several times, and it has not always been at the present location.

3) The land north of the now-elevated of the track has a steep slope because of the pipeline embedded in it, which is no longer used to transport water.

What I'm still not certain of is: Where was the original station in 1869? I'm thinking that it was where there is now an LIRR parking lot, between Rockaway Ave and S. Franklin. Is this correct?

Fran from Valley Stream :wink:
 #863587  by EdM
 
looking west from the present elevated VSRR station, prior to the early to mid fifties the track went to ground level and there were two grade crossings, one at Central and the other (I cannot remember the street) but it is now an underpass.nad I believe it went back up by Rosedale.. During the elevation, trains ran between the present ROW and Sunrise... Ed
 #863604  by feisner
 
EdM wrote:looking west from the present elevated VSRR station, prior to the early to mid fifties the track went to ground level and there were two grade crossings, one at Central and the other (I cannot remember the street) but it is now an underpass.nad I believe it went back up by Rosedale. Ed
Hi Ed,
w/re to the grade crossings: Do you mean Hicks Street? That is East of the Village Green, which wasn't there at the time, of course. You also have Payan and Ballard before you get to Central Avenue. Or did you mean a street WEST of Central?

My major interest is still the location of the original station BUILDING in 1869. The picture, which I got from Art's site, is probably a postcard. When I posted it someone said they thought it was probably the Gibson station, but Art verified that it was indeed the Valley Stream station.

Fran from Valley Stream.. :wink:
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