LIRR Mainline Third Track Project

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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TheLastSay

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by TheLastSay » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:09 pm

Yep I agree. The budget on this project is like a fat kid..He keeps getting bigger and bigger until he can't walk anymore. Taxpayer dollars thrown away.

Port Jervis
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Location: Warwick, New York

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by Port Jervis » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:51 am

One of One-Sixty wrote: For those who can not come is there anything ie; key points I should bring up, as I am planning on writing what I have to say down to make sure I address certain issues, myths and urban legends about the third track and so forth.
If you like myths and urban legends, why not start with your signature:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


There's no proof BF Franklin ever uttered this phrase. Normally I ignore people's signatures on message boards, but whenever I encounter someone misusing this one, I make an exception.
Hoboken rules, Midtown Direct drools!

islandtransit

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by islandtransit » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:16 pm

I wonder which would be a tougher sell; 3rd track or CRRLI from Garden City to Beth?

workextra
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Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by workextra » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:02 pm

Island,
Both has each of their own benefits, for intra-island/reverse commuters the CRR is the answer, for NYC/reverse commuters the 3rd track is the answer. Both as we know will cost billions. The CRR offers more versatility and better service options for central Nassau riders (taking burden of unnecessary traffic and parking hassle off Hicksville , Mineola and Westbury.) however it's probably much cheaper but still in billions to just add an express lane down the current main. The 3rd track offers less versatility but provides a vital express lane to the already over crowded main line. The 3rd Track will only have the following station stops available, Jamaica, Mineola, and Hicksville then the same from there. The central is never even thought of. The concept of a second main through the heart of Nassau should be brought up though as and official alternative to the 3rd track project to possibly swing more favor to the 3rd track. As a Nassau resident I would rather see 2 different plans and the pro's and con's of both officially outlined in an MTA publication. Plan 1 is the Mainline, Plan2 is the Central. Each publication would constitute both the pro's and con's of their respective projects and a general briefing of some work that needs' to be done to make either one happen. This is not a far fetched scheme, it's actually more a ploy to try and sway the public into the 3rd track. The only way to get a good solid answer to it is to actually conduct the study by means of a mass mailing to all Nassau county residents and get their thoughts on it. Show an official plan including maps and virtual renderings of what both may look like.
Let the people vote one which they want to see more.

hrfcarl
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Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:35 pm

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by hrfcarl » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:04 am

workextra wrote:The 3rd Track will only have the following station stops available, Jamaica, Mineola, and Hicksville then the same from there.
That answers a question I had a while back - thanks.

One tbing that has been bothering me about this 3rd track project is: With all the work done during the Mineola Intermodal (car/bus/train) project, why wasn't the 3rd track added and platfoms modifiy at that time? Looks like some of that work will have to be torn up, wasting more money. At worst, if the rest of the 3rd track project never gets going, Mineola would have Hicksville like capacity of 3 tracks/2 platforms. They did so with the recent grade elimination project in that area - bridge has room for 3 tracks.

I agree that the CRR would have been a better option for reason workextra gave. Too bad LIRR abandoned the line for development. I guess this development (more seizures) would make it cost more in $ and policitally than 3rd track?

workextra
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Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by workextra » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:18 am

hrfcarl ,
If done correctly the 3rd track "ML3" should branch off east of Floral Park station HMP1, then run along the current ML2 until it reaches Hicksville.
the following stations would be "local stops only, NHP,MAV,CPL,WBY,. ML1(north and ML2 south) would only be able to make these station stops. The new ML3 which would be the current ML2 would now stop at Just Mineola and Hicksville. with an overall capacity to stop at Floral Park, Mineola, and Hicksville.
To get an idea the current Main Line 2 (ML2) would become the new ML3 with the actual "new" track becoming ML2.
I hope this give you some picture of it.

Crabman1130
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Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by Crabman1130 » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:20 am

Why can't other stations be added to the third track? You move the platforms in and the tracks around the outside.

hrfcarl
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:35 pm

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by hrfcarl » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:26 am

workextra wrote:To get an idea the current Main Line 2 (ML2) would become the new ML3 with the actual "new" track becoming ML2.
I hope this give you some picture of it.
That is the pic I had, but in another thread there was mention of more stops, which to me seems to defeat the purpose of express, but would give more flexability. Back to Mineola, I still cannot see why the 3rd track or at least the setup for it (like Roslyn grade elimination project) was not done during Intermodal project.

BTW, how much of the ROW still exists for the CRR? I know a few highways cross it, but what about the rest? Housing? Powerlines?

Thanks.

Erie-Lackawanna
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Location: Where the Tropics Begin, FL

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by Erie-Lackawanna » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:33 pm

Port Jervis wrote:If you like myths and urban legends, why not start with your signature:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


There's no proof BF Franklin ever uttered this phrase. Normally I ignore people's signatures on message boards, but whenever I encounter someone misusing this one, I make an exception.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but...I did a little (very little) bit of research. The actual quote is thus: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

It appears not to be Franklin's words, but the words of a Richard Jackson, as published by Benjamin Franklin. I won't get into the gory details, but rather I'll direct those of you with interest to visit this link: http://www.futureofthebook.com/stories/storyReader$605

Jim

islandtransit

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by islandtransit » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:22 pm

Workextra: How is CRRLI not useful for NYC commuters? Because it doesn't add a track between Floral Park and Jamaica? I love your idea for having CRRLI has an alternative in the study. Too bad the LIRR didn't have the balls to try it. Probably afraid it would get shot down instantly. BTW, how do you know 3rd track will only access those stations? Why wouldn't it access all the others?

And I've always said that regarding Mineola, they should have at least built the 3rd track there already when the intermodal center was being built. That would be an excellent bypass track. They wouldn't have even had to tear down Nassau Tower yet to do it. Just run the siding track around the south platform(between the EB platform and the bus terminal) and then hook it back into the EB track just a few feet east of where the OB branches off. If anything it would allow for express trains to bypass trains stopping at Mineola, including bypassing OB trains that are stopped.

BTW, hrfcarl: The most significant structures obstructing the CRRLI ROW is LIPA power lines. There is the driveway to the county jail which can be shifted, and there is the walkway splitting the two golf courses at Einsenhower. THAT IS IT! Nothing else, as far as I know, blocks that ROW between Garden City and Beth.

workextra
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Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by workextra » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:50 pm

hrfcarl ,
BTW, how much of the ROW still exists for the CRR? I know a few highways cross it, but what about the rest? Housing? Power lines?
If I had to give a rough estimate about 75% or three quarters of the CRR are fully intact meaning not encroached on by other then LIPA. Problem areas (not mentioning NIMBY factor at this time) are as follows.
*The overpass over the Meadow brook Parkway and associated ramps. (all the Parkways are depressed enough and would be below grade)
*All Major grade crossings would need to be either eliminated or made into a quad gate system.
*Nassau county Jail. The entrance to this interesting facility is on the CRR ROW. (not a bad flag stop to discharge unruly *passengers to let the cool off).
*A LIPA substation by the Wantagh Parkway that is either on or adjacent to the ROW.
* The connection to the Main and current Central branch in Bethpage. (No the housing development is not on and has not encroached the ROW in any way.) It just makes the connection to the Main Line a little more difficult but not impossible.
I hope the above helps a little.
NOTE: unlike the 3rd track service here would only be able to take place between 6AM and 8PM absolutely no trains between 8PM and 6AM for at least the first 5 years. This is what I call the "getting acquainted to your new neighbor plan".
That is the pic I had, but in another thread there was mention of more stops, which to me seems to defeat the purpose of express, but would give more flexibility. Back to Mineola, I still cannot see why the 3rd track or at least the setup for it (like Roslyn grade elimination project) was not done during Intermodal project.

Yes It was more or less a waste of taxpayer funds to not extend the 3rd track from the current location east of Merillon Ave to a Point east of Roslyn road. This siding would be a huge help during any rush hour jam. The only problem with this is actually Nassau tower would have to be relocated so it's cost prohibitive. But yes, Mineola station should have had some kind of steal planking over the "pit" that would eventually house the 3rd track. This would have probably cost much less and could have been removed and the tracks below put into service.
I hope this clears it up.
Each project has both Pro's and Con's that need to be addressed the solution is not just adding this 3rd track but is found by spending the taxpayer money wisely and studying both alternatives and letting the people "whom this project is going to benefit" decide which way to go.
PS I'm sure many of us here could do this study at a substantially less cost.

hrfcarl
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Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by hrfcarl » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:11 am

workextra wrote:hope the above helps a little.
A lot! I was under the impression more of the ROW was encroached upon by housing.
workextra wrote:PS I'm sure many of us here could do this study at a substantially less cost.
If contracted for such a study, where would you propose stations along this rehabed CRR route (called that or become part of Ronkonkoma branch)? I definitely see one near the Meadowbrook Pkwy to serve the mall/coliseum and easier access. Would Bethpage close to be replace by a station on this this branch? Any other new or relocated stations ?

Thanks.

workextra
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Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by workextra » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:53 am

Island, and hrfcarl,
To be totally honest with y'all I want "both" projects. But I and everyone here knows that realistically it's not happening.
How is CRRLI not useful for NYC commuters? Because it doesn't add a track between Floral Park and Jamaica? I love your idea for having CRRLI has an alternative in the study. Too bad the LIRR didn't have the balls to try it. Probably afraid it would get shot down instantly. BTW, how do you know 3rd track will only access those stations? Why wouldn't it access all the others?
The CRR actually is a superior decision because It does provide several additional mid Nassau stations that will take some of the over crowding off the Main and Montauk. Shorter commute to their "local" station, less traffic=less accidents. However without even mentioning the benefits of the CRR it's already shot down. The CRR is truly an "if you build it they will come" type of project.
As far as the stations on the 3rd track project I figured that our by drawing it out, That would be the most logical approach to encroach as little as possible on adjacent properties The widest point would be branching off off Hempstead 1 at Floral Park station. There is a substation there then will need some reworking but is not a big problem. After re joining the current Main the 3rd track will continue with out swerving around any station except Mineola which the LIRR already has that property. If that make the south track swerve around a middle platform at NHP, MAV, CPL, and WBY it would be the stupidest move of the LIRR. those stations do not need access to this "express track" and will be safely away from trains using it. You want this express track isolated from as many platforms as possible. You can always bridge over to it during track work as you just seen happen at Woodside.
If contracted for such a study, where would you propose stations along this rehabed CRR route (called that or become part of Ronkonkoma branch)? I definitely see one near the Meadowbrook Pkwy to serve the mall/coliseum and easier access. Would Bethpage close to be replace by a station on this this branch? Any other new or relocated stations ?
This will be a reply just for the new stations: (not a total study of actual facts)
Clinton Rd, (Roosevelt field), NCC, (Eisenhower Park; summer only), North Merrick, Levittown, West Bethpage, and North Lindenhurst. The branch would be called the "Central Branch" becoming one with the current Central Branch. It would have a connection at Bethpage JCT to connect to the Main and current Central Branch. The current station at Bethpage would not be closed. I hope that answers your question.
Just the scope of the CRR project would make the 3rd track look like cake. I'm not trying to beat the dead horse deeper into its grave.

TheLastSay

Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by TheLastSay » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:43 am

Reopening the Central Branch would destroy the residential neighborhoods that the ROW runs through. It would split them in half and add blight to every area that it would "serve". Sorry, but the Railroad closed up shop there in 1939 and to reopen it after it has been gone so long would just be plain wrong. If it was an operating branch, I believe in the "railroad was here first" concept. But to close it and then 70 years later reopen it? I don't think so. There was this AC in the trainmens room going on about reopening that branch and making a huge terminal in Valley Stream. I was thinking while he was talking how terrible it sounded. Nobody pays much attention to him anyway and he's despised. You got a fully operational railroad on the mainline. Why ruin neighborhoods by building a new branch separate from that.

Luckily it won't happen.

Sir Ray
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Re: Town Hall Meeting On MTA/LIRR Third Track

Post by Sir Ray » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:06 am

TheLastSay wrote:Reopening the Central Branch would destroy the residential neighborhoods that the ROW runs through. It would split them in half and add blight to every area that it would "serve".
Right, much like the blighted areas of Garden City & Stewart Manor that the Hempstead Branch/Central Branch runs through nowadays :P
There was this AC in the trainmens room going on about reopening that branch and making a huge terminal in Valley Stream.
Huh? Was he talking about rebuilding/extending the West Hempstead Branch to Garden City? Otherwise the Central Branch and Valley Stream would never meet (at least not by any direct routing)

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