Amtrak considering Bi-levels for NE Corridor

[ExCon90]

That's right -- you'd need to build a massive ascending spiral to get from the bank of the Hudson to the west end of the bridge. Great for the fans, though; just like crossing the Kiel Canal in Germany. And who needs the New York market anyway?

[isaksenj]

There was a kind of roundabout connector until recent history -- the Hospital Branch. Unfortunately, an attempt at shortline development failed in the face of NIMBY locals and government, and it's now all gone to trails.

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ ... 211461.pdf


Here's some old information:

http://www.trainweb.org/locollection/WAPO10.html

[george matthews]

What works in Europe doesn't translate well in US style railroading,the same thing holds true on passenger car design,
throw in ADA access requirements and FRA mandated crashworthyness,the european designs just can't cut it.
If BBD doesn't have the means of recreating the Amfleet shell,the best bet will be a coach/lounge varient of
the Viewliner shell,which has already passed the basic ADA and FRA requirements.
For the long haul,this will be the easiest way to replace the "eastern low level fleet" and the NEC "non-Acela"
regional fleet

The only places in Europe I have seen doubledeck cars is the Netherlands, Belgium and France. In all of these they were used only for short journeys. The main problem is luggage, mainly for long distance journeys. There may be such cars in Germany, also for short distance journeys.

[ThirdRail7]

Union Tunnels are "C+" according to documents here
.

The timetable has the B&P tunnels at Plate C and the Union tunnels at Plate E, which is a little bigger. So, if something of dimension 5 size (plate E) came through the Union tunnels, it would have to head up the Cockeysville or the Mount Vernon runner.

AS Dutch and many others have said, none of this matters. The cars were a passing thought when Amtrak was considering piggybacking on a NJT order.

[bostontrainguy]

I have seen a cross-section of Amtrak's proposed Gateway tunnels and they indicate 18ft from top-of-rail to the top of the tunnel. There is no showing of the catenary and the top-of-rail looks like it is allowing plenty of room for ballast.

These same drawings show the adjacent "Empire Line Tunnel" without dimensions. However if you compare the two, the Empire Tunnel looks exactly the same height between the tunnel floor and the tunnel ceiling, however that allows no room for rail and ballast. Also the Empire Tunnel floor has a notch for the tracks so it is more restrictive.

So maybe if the catenary is removed (is it actually ever used?), and the track structure built about a foot high, a Superliner Lake Shore Limited or dome Adirondack could actually make it to the new Monihan Station. Too bad Sunnyside is on the wrong side of the City.

In any case, the new Gateway Tunnels will probably allow them under the Hudson. Can you visualize a new flexible-platform-height Superliner equipped Silver Meteor in the distant future when the NEC is rebuilt?

[Greg Moore]

I have seen a cross-section of Amtrak's proposed Gateway tunnels and they indicate 18ft from top-of-rail to the top of the tunnel. There is no showing of the catenary and the top-of-rail looks like it is allowing plenty of room for ballast.

These same drawings show the adjacent "Empire Line Tunnel" without dimensions. However if you compare the two, the Empire Tunnel looks exactly the same height between the tunnel floor and the tunnel ceiling, however that allows no room for rail and ballast. Also the Empire Tunnel floor has a notch for the tracks so it is more restrictive.

So maybe if the catenary is removed (is it actually ever used?), and the track structure built about a foot high, a Superliner Lake Shore Limited or dome Adirondack could actually make it to the new Monihan Station. Too bad Sunnyside is on the wrong side of the City.

In any case, the new Gateway Tunnels will probably allow them under the Hudson. Can you visualize a new flexible-platform-height Superliner equipped Silver Meteor in the distant future when the NEC is rebuilt?

No, I can't. Let's assume your figures are right. By the time you get in the rails, ties (or however you attach them), the caternary, stand-off from the ceiling and stand-off from the top of the car and I'm pretty sure over the top of a Superliner car.

A Superliner is 16' 2". So that leaves you 1'10" for everything else.

As nice as it might be, it just again't gonna happen. We can barely get the money together to build the new tunnels in the first place, despite a clear need. If you think you'll be able to convince the politicians to spend even MORE money for larger tunnels that can't take advantage of the extra height until you spend billions more on new platforms, other tunnels and a lot of other work, I've got a bridge for sale.

[ThirdRail7]

I have seen a cross-section of Amtrak's proposed Gateway tunnels and they indicate 18ft from top-of-rail to the top of the tunnel. There is no showing of the catenary and the top-of-rail looks like it is allowing plenty of room for ballast.

These same drawings show the adjacent "Empire Line Tunnel" without dimensions. However if you compare the two, the Empire Tunnel looks exactly the same height between the tunnel floor and the tunnel ceiling, however that allows no room for rail and ballast. Also the Empire Tunnel floor has a notch for the tracks so it is more restrictive.

So maybe if the catenary is removed (is it actually ever used?), and the track structure built about a foot high, a Superliner Lake Shore Limited or dome Adirondack could actually make it to the new Monihan Station. Too bad Sunnyside is on the wrong side of the City.

In any case, the new Gateway Tunnels will probably allow them under the Hudson. Can you visualize a new flexible-platform-height Superliner equipped Silver Meteor in the distant future when the NEC is rebuilt?

No, I can't. Let's assume your figures are right. By the time you get in the rails, ties (or however you attach them), the caternary, stand-off from the ceiling and stand-off from the top of the car and I'm pretty sure over the top of a Superliner car.

A Superliner is 16' 2". So that leaves you 1'10" for everything else.

As nice as it might be, it just again't gonna happen. We can barely get the money together to build the new tunnels in the first place, despite a clear need. If you think you'll be able to convince the politicians to spend even MORE money for larger tunnels that can't take advantage of the extra height until you spend billions more on new platforms, other tunnels and a lot of other work, I've got a bridge for sale.

I can't either. Unless you're rebuilding the entire corridor from top to bottom, the clearance (for the 18th time) isn't there. It's not just the tunnels. There are plenty of other low spots on the NEC. If they DO rebuild the entire corridor from top to bottom, it will most likely be with high speed service in mind. I doubt they'd want Superliners moping along at NJT speeds in the picture.


PS: The catenary in the Empire Tunnel is used.

[atsf sp]

If the concern is the lack of baggage room, they should just use bi-levels similar to NJTs but only on trains that terminate at NYP. This is cause trains to places such as Philly are more of a commuter run anyways. The many times I have taken the NEC the majority of people are just going intercity between Philly and New York. Or getting on at WAS to get off at those two. They do not require much luggage since rush hour the Amtrak's NEC is virtually a businessmans commuter train. Trains to Boston would only use the single levels since that adds extra hours to the ride. These bi-levels would work better as a compliment to single levels than as the only car type.

[DutchRailnut]

can we stop could - woulds - shoulds and stick to reality, Amtrak is and has not considered Bi-levels for N.E.C.

[mtuandrew]

Shame the Center City Connection in Philadelphia doesn't connect back to the NEC from the Reading, or you could run joint SEPTA-NJT Clockers with relative ease. No reversing needed with the Sunnyside loop. I don't think Amtrak needs to be involved regardless, not for that particular route for that density of seating.

[ThirdRail7]

If the concern is the lack of baggage room, they should just use bi-levels similar to NJTs but only on trains that terminate at NYP. This is cause trains to places such as Philly are more of a commuter run anyways. The many times I have taken the NEC the majority of people are just going intercity between Philly and New York. Or getting on at WAS to get off at those two. They do not require much luggage since rush hour the Amtrak's NEC is virtually a businessmans commuter train. Trains to Boston would only use the single levels since that adds extra hours to the ride. These bi-levels would work better as a compliment to single levels than as the only car type.

This idea makes ZERO sense and is largely untrue. I suppose that this fleet would have to be benched FRI-SUN, when a lot of leisure travelers and their luggage are out and about. This also kills the chance of sending equipment "through" in the event of a disruption (like the day when 134 was almost sent to pinch hit for 2170.) Additionally, define "terminates in NYP." Train 156 "terminates" in NYP. However the equipment originates at BOS(PD) SAT and SPG(PD) SUN and runs through to LYH. Not exactly a ton of weekend businessman commuting going on between LYH and WAS on weekends. However, there are a lot of college students.

So, it goes back to your closing statement. A bi-level would be a compliment to single levels. Amtrak has spent YEARS trying to get away from oddball sets of equipment (the Acela Set notwithstanding) and now you have TWO eastern fleets, which is ludicrous and expensive. Whatever comes next will need to serve the Eastern markets. They will need the flexibility to work between all routes in all markets.

The goal should be one fleet, one standard, one maintenance profile. Viewliner coaches with overhead luggage racks anyone? (I'm just kidding.)

[FRN9]

Shame the Center City Connection in Philadelphia doesn't connect back to the NEC from the Reading, or you could run joint SEPTA-NJT Clockers with relative ease. No reversing needed with the Sunnyside loop. I don't think Amtrak needs to be involved regardless, not for that particular route for that density of seating.

This could work perfectly with the ALP45 and the NJT doubledeckers. NYC to Reading with limited stops after Norristown and between 30th Street and Trenton.

[Greg Moore]

If the concern is the lack of baggage room, they should just use bi-levels similar to NJTs but only on trains that terminate at NYP. This is cause trains to places such as Philly are more of a commuter run anyways. The many times I have taken the NEC the majority of people are just going intercity between Philly and New York. Or getting on at WAS to get off at those two. They do not require much luggage since rush hour the Amtrak's NEC is virtually a businessmans commuter train. Trains to Boston would only use the single levels since that adds extra hours to the ride. These bi-levels would work better as a compliment to single levels than as the only car type.

The goal should be one fleet, one standard, one maintenance profile. Viewliner coaches with overhead luggage racks anyone? (I'm just kidding.)

Some stuff snipped.

Having commuted from WAS to BWI, I've got to say, even on a commuter run, the lack of luggage racks of any real size sucked. My understanding is the NJT design is even tighter (I rode one once, at about 2:00 AM New Year's Day, suffice to say, while sober, I don't recall much).

So I don't even buy the argument commuters don't require much. They may TOLERATE not much, but I'm sure they'd prefer more.

As for Viewliners why joke? It would make a nice shell for an Amfleet passenger car replacement.

[ThirdRail7]

Having commuted from WAS to BWI, I've got to say, even on a commuter run, the lack of luggage racks of any real size sucked. My understanding is the NJT design is even tighter (I rode one once, at about 2:00 AM New Year's Day, suffice to say, while sober, I don't recall much).

So I don't even buy the argument commuters don't require much. They may TOLERATE not much, but I'm sure they'd prefer more.

As for Viewliners why joke? It would make a nice shell for an Amfleet passenger car replacement.

I was trying to be generous for the sake of argument. I know how useless the NJT MLV are when it comes to luggage. They are no match for the EWR travel, particularly around holidays. When Amtrak borrows (and manages to return) the MUs for the Thanksgiving, the center doors are cut out and that area is used to store luggage. You can't do that with a MLV. Your only recourse is to use the concourse seating, which is needed.

At any rate, we're really drifting off into La-la land here, particularly with people mentioning Reading, Clockers and Septa.

As for the viewliner shell, I'm looking for something that is universal. Viewliners have 1 door that is manual operated, is heavier than the current coach fleet ( I think) and all of those windows would be useless on a coach. Indeed, it would be an annoyance, particularly for early morning travel. Not my idea for a good coach.

Before someone says "just add another door and train line it and....etc: If you do that, it isn't really a viewliner.

[mtuandrew]

Shame the Center City Connection in Philadelphia doesn't connect back to the NEC from the Reading, or you could run joint SEPTA-NJT Clockers with relative ease. No reversing needed with the Sunnyside loop. I don't think Amtrak needs to be involved regardless, not for that particular route for that density of seating.

This could work perfectly with the ALP45 and the NJT doubledeckers. NYC to Reading with limited stops after Norristown and between 30th Street and Trenton.

Not service to Reading, PA, but using the former Reading Railroad from Market East to North Philadelphia. In other words, this train would operate as a limited-stop NJT NEC Line train from NYP to Trenton, a limited-stop SEPTA train from Trenton to PHL 30th St., stop at Suburban and Market East, and use the (nonexistent) track connection at North Philadelphia to reenter the NEC and go northeast. No Reading, no Allentown, no Harrisburg, no need for ALP-45DPs or Amtrak, only a conveyor belt from NYP to PHL operated jointly by NJT and SEPTA. In other words, a new and better Clocker with a fare somewhere between commuter and Amtrak.

EDIT: Whoops, this series of posts was really supposed to be in the Budget Corridor Travel thread. Mods, would you mind transferring the string over there please?