Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, Amtrak67 of America, Tadman, gprimr1

mtuandrew
Posts: 6002
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 am
Location: the Manassas Gap Independent Line

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by mtuandrew » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:42 pm

Thanks for your insight on the Horizons, AM. Who supplied the door hardware for the NJT Comets you worked on - Bombardier or some off-the-shelf outside supplier? Is it air or electric?

ApproachMedium
Posts: 5921
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: From here to There

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by ApproachMedium » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:41 pm

Door controls i think are all Faivley to match what is in the Comet IV cars. The work was done originally by some outfit which got bought out by Alstom halfway thru the rebuild process. I dont know who made the leaf itself, possibly a local steel fabricator in upstate NY. The cars were done in Hornell NY. All of the door stuff is electric on NJT, always has been. They do not use any of that air nonsense like the MBTA does. Amtrak is fully capable of doing this kind of work in house. The door pockets are still there from the original pocket doors, just welded over. Things like the door leafs and the long door extension boxes probably would come from an outside parts supplier/fab shop and they could utilize any number of electronic door operators that are available on the market today.
No good deed goes unpunished.

R36 Combine Coach
Posts: 5480
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:51 pm

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by R36 Combine Coach » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:07 am

ApproachMedium wrote:The work was done originally by some outfit which got bought out by Alstom halfway thru the rebuild process. The cars were done in Hornell NY.
AAI Corp., Hunt Valley, MD did the initial cars between 1999-2001, then Alstom took over in 2002-2003.
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.

gokeefe
Posts: 11933
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:28 pm
Location: Winthrop, Maine

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by gokeefe » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:52 pm

With the completion of the first Siemens car for CAL/IDOT imminent now seems like an appropriate time to revisit this topic.

A lot has changed throughout Amtrak since the previous post in November 2017.

In terms of potential reassignment I have to wonder if the Springfield shuttle service might be a good fit.

Not sure if refurbishment is still being seriously considered or not.
gokeefe

Greg Moore
Posts: 5401
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:15 am
Location: IT Consultant

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by Greg Moore » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:18 pm

I would suggest not. I think the NEC and its extensions are best served by continuing to use Amfleets for a maximum amount of interoperability and commonality of parts at repair bases.
Check out QuiCR, Quick, Crowdsourced Responses for businesses.

John_Perkowski
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:12 pm
Location: Off the Q main near Parkville MO

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by John_Perkowski » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:08 pm

Amtrak needs a quality car for the 100-500 mile run.

Neither Amfleet nor Horizon are it. Frankly, if they were built today, the FRA would deny the plan over window size for accident escape.

Honestly, Budd built the best coach shell ever. It is safe, strong and easily capable of 110mph. It’s what Amtrak needs for the beyond metro commuter but not full on line haul market.
~John Perkowski: Moderator: General Discussion: Locomotives, Rolling Stock, and Equipment
Assistant Administrator: Railroad.net/forums
Jeff Smith & Greg Primrose now own railroad.net!

mtuandrew
Posts: 6002
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 am
Location: the Manassas Gap Independent Line

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by mtuandrew » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:21 pm

Which Budd body are you talking, Colonel - the RDC, the Pioneer/Silverliner I-II, the Amfleet II (since you don’t mean the Metroliner/Amfleet I), the Metropolitans for LIRR and Metro-North, the Hi-Level, or something else?

gokeefe
Posts: 11933
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:28 pm
Location: Winthrop, Maine

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by gokeefe » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:02 pm

Greg Moore wrote:I would suggest not. I think the NEC and its extensions are best served by continuing to use Amfleets for a maximum amount of interoperability and commonality of parts at repair bases.
The new Midwest coach fleet seems to suggest that Beech Grove would no longer be convenient for the Horizon car base as the routes using those cars may not necessarily be centered on Chicago.

Soooo .... Given that California is getting these cars as well that seems to leave Bear Shops as the most obvious place for a Horizon fleet base.

Perhaps convert them to LD configuration and use them as Amfleet II replacements?
gokeefe

Jeff Smith
Site Admin
Posts: 8512
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by Jeff Smith » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:01 pm

From the wiki page:
...
The Horizon is a single-level model of rail car used by Amtrak, primarily on short-haul corridor routes in the Midwestern United States. Bombardier Transportation built 104 of the cars in 1988–1990 based on the Comet II commuter coach design.
...
Routes served
As of November 2017, the Horizon coach cars primarily are used on trains based out of Amtrak's Chicago division including the Illinois Service (Carl Sandburg, Illini, Illinois Zephyr, Lincoln Service & Saluki), Michigan Services (Blue Water & Wolverine), Hiawatha, Hoosier State and Missouri River Runner.

Additionally, several Horizon cars are assigned to Amtrak's Los Angeles division for use on the Pacific Surfliner route.

The California Department of Transportation has also paid to lease and refurbish 3 dinette cars (all table seating) for use as café cars on the San Joaquin route where they are paired with refurbished Comet cars owned by the state.[11] These cars are assigned to Amtrak's Oakland division.
...
So they’re spread out a bit now. Are there any services out there, Amtrak or not, needing that fleet size?

Springfield/Hartford Line is not a bad idea. CtDOT is using old MBB cars, but has Shoreliners (an East of Hudson fleet version of Comets) in pool service with MNRR. They won’t be available for CtDOT separate fleet needs until MNRR/CtDOT acquire as planned Multi-Levels for the NH line. Amtrak would continue to use Amfleets on the through regionals until they’re replaced in the near-term, but on the shuttle maybe CtDOT/Mass would be interested, with a common maintenance base in New Haven? CtDOT’s fleet is such a bunch of mutts... a single fleet standard might be good.

How about NYS Empire Service?

Quick question; I thought I remembered something about them being problematic during winter operations?

NCDOT?

Any potential start up,services out there?
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator/Co-Owner

tomj
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:06 pm

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by tomj » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:15 pm

I would say consider sending them south. Like additional services in the Carolinas, Georgia, Arkansas, Tennessee and so on. Wasn't one of the gripes about the Horizon cars that they don't perform well in cold weather? If that is still true, sending them to warmer climates even if it means trying to partner with the states to start more corridor services. This is also why Amtrak should hold onto the Amfleet even as their replacements come in. Best case scenario with them is we get a 1 to 1 new for Amfleet and they get scrapped when Amtrak is dealing with equipment shortage. And doing that, even if Congressionally inflicted, would be another reason to call for cuts and privatization. I know that is slightly off topic, but finding a use for equipment is better than just canning them, even if new routes would take time and work. Like for example, even in California there are calls for a line North of Sacramento to Redding and East to Reno or South to Salinas. I am not up on every states call for new service, but there has to be some need in some part of the country for them.

gokeefe
Posts: 11933
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:28 pm
Location: Winthrop, Maine

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by gokeefe » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:23 pm

I seem to recall reading that the cold weather issues had been addressed but (I assume) the lack of train line doors is still the major issue for NEC service.

This seems to be a good reason why the Springfield shuttle could answer the needs of that route. Cold weather issues aren't that bad and a lack of train line doors isn't necessarily a problem. And the cars would free up Amfleets for service elsewhere.
gokeefe

mtuandrew
Posts: 6002
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 am
Location: the Manassas Gap Independent Line

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by mtuandrew » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:23 pm

Mr. O’Keefe had mentioned sending the Horizon fleet into LD coach service, and I have thoughts.

If I’m doing my math right, sixty Horizon coaches and twelve dinettes could make twelve five-car sets, and that’s about perfect for equipping the Silver Service and Crescent with some leftovers for protect service. The Palmetto could profitably do more NEC business so Amtrak could consider equipping that train and the Pennsylvanian with A-Is. The Lake Shore Limited and Cardinal should keep equipment that consistently plays well in the cold, meaning the best of the A-IIs as the rest go to the Gillette factory, then the first of the LDSL coaches as those come into play.

I’m also assuming AMTK can find $500k/car to install new seats and lighting, and wrap each car in vinyl. Maybe even another $100k/car to install trainline doors.

gokeefe
Posts: 11933
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:28 pm
Location: Winthrop, Maine

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by gokeefe » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:47 pm

I have to agree the Crescent in particular would be a good fit. Warm weather and very few stations with high passenger counts. Silver Service probably works just fine as well. NCDOT might make the switch on the Carolinian if they felt the numbers worked better but as I recall that train runs with Amfleet I cars.
gokeefe

mtuandrew
Posts: 6002
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 am
Location: the Manassas Gap Independent Line

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by mtuandrew » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:07 am

gokeefe wrote:I have to agree the Crescent in particular would be a good fit. Warm weather and very few stations with high passenger counts. Silver Service probably works just fine as well. NCDOT might make the switch on the Carolinian if they felt the numbers worked better but as I recall that train runs with Amfleet I cars.
I’d guess NCDOT wouldn’t have a say over what Amtrak assigns, unless it’s to complain if Amtrak assigned exclusively subpar equipment to the Carolinian.

Maybe they would buy the Horizon fleet in part or full, but that assumes they need more new-to-them used cars, that they don’t want more Heritage cars, and that they don’t go for Siemens coaches or Stadler DMUs. It also assumes they need to expand their fleet for Wilmington and/or Asheville service, because you don’t need that many cars even for Piedmonts every hour.

Backshophoss
Posts: 6318
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Horizon Coach Refurbishment

Post by Backshophoss » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:17 am

The "Happy" retirement home for the Horizon fleet is the "Gulf Coaster" service train(aka Sunset Ltd east) where rain and humid conditions
might force an A/C "tonnage" upgrade at best,can be cycled thru the Sanford Auto Train shop as needed instead of Beech Grove.
Bear was not a Horizon shop unless the horizon food service cars were cycled thru Bear with the Amfleet I and II cars.
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

Return to “Amtrak”