Amtrak Auto Train Discussion

[justalurker66]

Is La Junta close enough to Chicago to have only two sets of car carriers?

La Junta would be a good point for those who want to go north instead of south. The challenge is to pick a location that is close to where people want to go without having most of the passengers backtracking. Lorton and Sanford probably get most of their passengers from north of Lorton and south of Sanford - making those locations work.

[Arlington]

Here are the things I'd say you can't change when proposing new auto trains:
1) anything about the current one
2) the need to have very large population centers on both ends, ideally with a seasonal element that causes people to bring their cars rather than renting. it has to be large enough that you are willing to forgo intermediate demand; this is very unusual.
3) the daily cycle. The need to have a trip of about the same physical length and duration, sufficient schedule padding, and terminal operations that occur entirely by daylight, and also allow most drivers to arrive and leave in daylight and get to their destination with a minimum of dark time driving.
4) terminals worth driving to and from, but not necessarily directly in a demand center. (Launching a second Philadelphia to Jacksonville service acknowledges that New England is a large demand center and that southern Atlantic coast's center of gravity has moved towards ORL/JAX from Tampa and Miami.
5) exactly two very similar superliner and autorack consists

somewhere out West there needs to be a snowbird route that collects people from Minnesota Wisconsin and Illinois and takes them to Arizona and Los Angeles (the other Disney)

[electricron]

The Southwest Chief route would be "possible" with one Chicago station (Aurora or Naperville area) and possible stations in New Mexico or Arizona and LA. Being financially worth doing is a separate question.

You obviously did not do what I asked, i.e. checking the Southwest Chief's schedule. Remember the limitation for a daily Auto Train operation; 50 mph average speeds over 17 hours causing the 850 rail miles range.
It's 1341 rail miles from Chicago to Albuquerque, almost 500 miles too far. Naperville gets you back just 28 rail miles. To get back the 500 rail miles for the 850 limitation, your train does not start in Chicago, it starts just east of Topeka Kansas, two to three states west of Chicago.

Chances for an acceptable Auto Train operation = zero.

[Jeff Smith]

Here are the things I'd say you can't change when proposing new auto trains:
1) anything about the current one
2) the need to have very large population centers on both ends, ideally with a seasonal element that causes people to bring their cars rather than renting. it has to be large enough that you are willing to forgo intermediate demand; this is very unusual.
3) the daily cycle. The need to have a trip of about the same physical length and duration, sufficient schedule padding, and terminal operations that occur entirely by daylight, and also allow most drivers to arrive and leave in daylight and get to their destination with a minimum of dark time driving.
4) terminals worth driving to and from, but not necessarily directly in a demand center. (Launching a second Philadelphia to Jacksonville service acknowledges that New England is a large demand center and that southern Atlantic coast's center of gravity has moved towards ORL/JAX from Tampa and Miami.
5) exactly two very similar superliner and autorack consists

somewhere out West there needs to be a snowbird route that collects people from Minnesota Wisconsin and Illinois and takes them to Arizona and Los Angeles (the other Disney)

^^^ Genius.

I've got the second set of city pairs: Beech Grove and Sanford. Per Google maps (i.e. NOT as the crow flies) 995 miles (vs. 855 on the current AT). I don't know enough about midwest railroads to figure out the route; it could end up longer or be impossible for that matter LOL.

Shades of the FLORIDIAN!

Nevertheless, Beech Grove is 190 miles from Chicago, 288 from Michigan, and could catch a large swath of the Midwest.

[Arlington]

I think I'd like to try:
City of New Orleans 830 miles
Chicago Suburbs (Kankakee)
New Orleans Suburbs (Hammond LA)

I also think that Sanford FL is further south that it needs to be (these are car people, after all)
How close to South Georgia could I get from Indianapolis (or Ft Wayne) IN?

Here are a couple of attempts at 850miles, and "worth driving to" (just like LOR was in its day)

Chief Auto Train
Kansas City (western suburbs / I-435 beltway) (call it "mile 450 of the Chief) to
Lamy NM (I-25 access / US 285) (at mile 1274 of the Chief)
Verdict: Fails due to requiring 7 hour trips on both ends to get to MSP/CHI or PHX/Tucson

Zephyr East Auto Train
Galesburg IL (I-74 / mile 162) (taps everything in an arc from MSP to MKE to CHI to
Hudson CO (https://goo.gl/maps/eUnGi2UJhCd5VVdT7) (mile 1010)

Then, for me, the one to try would be from
Hudson CO to …
...wherever nearest Las Vegas 850 rail miles would get me
...as close to "greater Phoenix" as 850 rail miles would get me
(with the goal to be to also tap the "willing to drive the rest of the way to Southern California)

[electricron]

Since so many are proposing a Chicago originating station, how far can an Auto Train reach within 850 miles away from Chicago on the existing Amtrak routes?
Empire Builder to Devil’s Lake ND
California Zephyr to McCook, NE
Southwest Chief to Garden City, KS
Texas Eagle to Marshal, TX
City of New Orleans to McComb, MS
Cardinal to Culpepper, VA
Capitol Limited to Washington D.C. (all the way)
Lake Sore Limited to Hudson, NY
Wolverine to Pontiac, MI (all the way)
For every mile away from Chicago you place the originating station, you can add the same amount of miles for your destination station.

[Jeff Smith]

I don't think Chicago as a STATION works. That's why I proposed Beech Grove. I think somewhere in Indiana is ideal as it's a decent day drive for a large catchment area of the midwest, and is not all that much longer to Sanford, and an existing facility.

[Arlington]

^ Agreed. Don't start at Chicago. Really, don't start within 3 hours of it*
New Yorkers drive 4 hours to get to the LOR terminal

Start, instead, at someplace that taps the whole of the Great Lakes, just like LOR tapped the whole of WAS-BAL-PHL-NYC

Fort Wayne Indiana, for example, is less than 4 hours from ALL of:
Chicago, Gary-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit, & Cleveland.
And even worth back-tracking from Indy, Dayton, and Columbus.

How close to Florida can I get from Fort Wayne Indiana?

*except for CONO Auto Train, which I propose for Kankakee

[gokeefe]

Here are the things I'd say you can't change when proposing new auto trains:

6) Railroad route must be served in it's entirety by a single Class I carrier. (Corollary: any proposal reusing Sanford has to run via CSX).

[Jeff Smith]

George, I'd say that's a "nice to have" but not mandatory. It would also be difficult. I like your route out of NJ and PA, though, over some Conrail/legacy roads (LV, Reading, etc.) that gets you somewhere in the Southeast in the allotted distance and time.

I think a few on here, Ron and Arlington, have set up some pretty good parameters. We're having a fun exercise in any case.

Cross Country: as Backshop has noted, the BNSF Transcon is likely a no-go (that's primarily the Chief route, right?). But I still think the west is a good target, and again, it doesn't have to be a downtown-downtown route. I'd also say it doesn't have to be a daily route; perhaps not even the "thrice weekly" route. I'd say once weekly would be a good start.

[Jeff Smith]

Back to reality: Amtrak is having an AT BOGO sale: https://www.amtrak.com/auto-train-roome ... R-FareSale

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Complimentary meals offered exclusively for sleeping car customers
Eager to start your Auto Train journey? For a limited time, Amtrak is offering a special Auto Train Coach fare of $89-one way, plus the cost of your vehicle.

[lordsigma12345]

That’s the first time I’ve seen that sale with bedrooms included.

[WhartonAndNorthern]

Cross Country: as Backshop has noted, the BNSF Transcon is likely a no-go (that's primarily the Chief route, right?). But I still think the west is a good target, and again, it doesn't have to be a downtown-downtown route. I'd also say it doesn't have to be a daily route; perhaps not even the "thrice weekly" route. I'd say once weekly would be a good start.

I'd disagree. If any route were viable it would be the BNSF Southern Transcon. I'd skip the Amtrak-only sections over Raton Pass and run via Amarillo (Belen Cutoff) to keep the grades down. BNSF still maintains 70-mph running for its intermodals and only has two or three remaining single-track choke points.

A western Auto Train would behave more like a freight train: 70-mph not 90 mph running AND no frequent station stops. It would also be shorter than a unit train or even an intermodal (eastbound land bridge stack trains are hitting 16,000 feet on the Transcon). It would not require special handling. Look at the Chief: it wants to run 90-mph but has to stop every so often. BNSF has to stop trains or route trains around it. Then when it gets up and goes, Amtrak complains that it's "stuck" behind a 50-mph manifest or 70-mph intermodal and can't switch tracks since a UPS train is on the other track.

If the Auto Train could run with the traffic flow and had some schedule leeway (a few hours late is OK), I could see BNSF becoming agreeable provided the right amount of money were paid.

The bigger question: would a two-night train that ran 3 or so times a week be viable?

[mtuandrew]

6) Railroad route must be served in it's entirety by a single Class I carrier. (Corollary: any proposal reusing Sanford has to run via CSX).

I would like to try for two potential routes between each city point, as I mentioned above, and have the Auto Train terminals be either on a terminal road, a commuter road, or Amtrak property with direct access to at least two routings.

^ Agreed. Don't start at Chicago. Really, don't start within 3 hours of it*
New Yorkers drive 4 hours to get to the LOR terminal

Start, instead, at someplace that taps the whole of the Great Lakes, just like LOR tapped the whole of WAS-BAL-PHL-NYC

Fort Wayne Indiana, for example, is less than 4 hours from ALL of:
Chicago, Gary-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit, & Cleveland.
And even worth back-tracking from Indy, Dayton, and Columbus.

How close to Florida can I get from Fort Wayne Indiana?

*except for CONO Auto Train, which I propose for Kankakee

I wanna push back against that - Milwaukee is north of Chicago, Minneapolis significantly north, and Des Moines significantly west, but they are all potential traffic generators for a Midwest auto train. That changes when you add three hours to a six-seven hour drive. I wouldn’t move a terminal that far away from Chicago. As much as it’s nice to have the shop complex right there, Beech Grove is also inconvenient due to CSX being the only practical game in town. Blue Island offers choices of roads and access to many surrounding cities, not just those Chicago and south.

[eolesen]

I'd think a two day trip between Chicago and the West Coast and/or a mountain state would be marketable, but it would need to be within a two-three hour drive of Chicago. Indy is just too far south for that. As a unit train with no stops, it should be able to go with the flow and not cause any delays.

With UP's Rochelle yard being sidelined, could it be re-purposed as a Midwest originating point? You could easily access either the UP or BNSF transcon from there...