Amtrak Empire Service (New York State)

[SRich]

A small question, why doesn't has the empire service like te keystone service a cabcar at the rear of the train, the need to change the locomotive is then no more...

[Amtrak706]

Because it’s not needed. The trains have to use the turnaround loop at Sunnyside to access the yard, and there is a wye at Albany. There aren’t enough Metroliner cabs to outfit the Empire trains anyway, and even if there were enough, there is no way to control the diesel/electric mode switchover from a cabcar, it has to be done in the P32 cab.

[SouthernRailway]

Why are Amfleet Empire Service trains scheduled for around 5 1/2 hours between NYC and Syracuse, but the Lake Shore Limited is scheduled for 7 hours?

I can see a padded schedule eastbound for the LSL to make up for delays further west, but shouldn't it take the same time north/west between NYC and Syracuse as other trains, more or less?

I was about to tell a relative to take the LSL in a sleeping car, even during the day, but an extra hour and a half is pushing it when it's so easy to fly.

Thanks.

[Amtrak706]

Because the LSL has to combine/split itself at Albany with the NY and Boston sections. And then the dual mode needs to be added or removed from the NY section. It ends up taking a surprisingly long time to do all this.

[Jeff Smith]

Also posted in Brightline: http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p1497559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Random question, as improvements to the corridor continue or are pondered, and Amtrak seeks to replace its Amfleet I’s:

The Brightline train sets are led by a variant of the Charger (SCB-40). NYS and Amtrak are looking to replace the P32’s with a modified SC-44 including third rail shoes (presumably over/under for all NYS roads).

Wouldn’t a modified Brightline set and business model be a good fit for Empire Service? Better yet, change providers to Brightline as an operator?

Amtrak would continue to operate the LD’s.

[35dtmrs92]

Do we have confirmation that Amtrak/NYS are specifying compatibility with both over and under running third rail on their P32 replacement? I'm also curious what the speed limit will be on third rail. If that replacement loco can maintain 80 mi/hr in third rail mode, a lot of doors get unlocked; I'm thinking Albany-Montauk service via NYP, for one.

[Jeff Smith]

That’s not a bad idea but the LIRR is pretty cramped as it is, at least until the third track project sorts itself out. Re: third rail, AFAIK the idea was a joint bid and common specifications for easier/joint maintenance and inter-operability.

[Amtrak706]

Third rail dual modes are not designed for prolonged or high speed operation in electric mode. Catenary is many thousands of volts, allowing for a lower current and enabling enough power for a locomotive to accelerate a train to come through one pantograph and this one point of contact. Third rail is significantly lower voltage, 750VDC I believe, and therefore requires high current to get enough power across. This is why all trains that use third rail for their main power source are EMUs, as they can distribute the load out to several shoes throughout the train. P32s, DM30s, and FL9s cram as many third rail shoes as possible onto their trucks but it is still quite the load and is susceptible to heavy arcing and constant losses of power as the locomotive traverses gaps in the third rail due to switches, etc. This is why the dual mode locos have a relatively low max speed in electric mode, and why they switch off as soon as possible (e.g. Metro-North P32s turning on the diesel as soon as they are out of the Park Avenue tunnel instead of all the way to Harmon. LIRR is no different so max third rail speed is not really a problem as the loco would only be in third rail mode where absolutely necessary anyway.

[SouthernRailway]

Thanks, Amtrak706--your posts are super-helpful and informative.

[benboston]

Also posted in Brightline: http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p1497559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Random question, as improvements to the corridor continue or are pondered, and Amtrak seeks to replace its Amfleet I’s:

The Brightline train sets are led by a variant of the Charger (SCB-40). NYS and Amtrak are looking to replace the P32’s with a modified SC-44 including third rail shoes (presumably over/under for all NYS roads).

Wouldn’t a modified Brightline set and business model be a good fit for Empire Service? Better yet, change providers to Brightline as an operator?

Amtrak would continue to operate the LD’s.

Yeah, NYS could/should sell the rights to running and operating the Empire Services to Brightline. Brightline would definitely do a better job at it.

[electricron]

They could, but they will not. Here's why. The railroad corridors Empire Service trains used are not owned by Brightline, or the Florida East Coast Railroad, which exists in Florida and will exist in California/Nevada. Most of the rail corridors in New York State are owned by CSX, which by law has to allow Amtrak on them - they do not have to allow anyone else on them.

[benboston]

I understand that, but Brightline could threaten to make their own corridor and in doing that they will generate lots of negotiating power.

[DutchRailnut]

lets stop fantasy land , make their own corridor?? even brightline and virgin don't have enough money.

[Jeff Smith]

NYS/MTA owns up to Poughkeepsie. North of Poughkeepsie to Albany is owned by CSX but dispatched by Amtrak. West of Albany is 100% CSX operation; that corridor would be the biggest hurdle.

It seems like NYP-Albany would be an easy hurdle. You’re trading frequencies; extra slots come later. And there is a demand in that corridor for premium service; Amtrak does not offer Cafe cars, at least on the Albany trains. It just seems like a slam dunk for NYS to seek out a corridor operator, and leave north and west of Albany to Amtrak.

And “their own corridor” is a huge fantasy.

[superstar]

The whole point of Brightline is that they control the entire experience--train, station, track, etc. And the rail corridor is associated with real estate properties that the operator manages as well, with the train serving to add value to the real estate and make both parts stronger. None of these things is true in NYS, and Brightline has made absolutely no indication that they care to serve as a contract operator. Quite the opposite in fact. Any idea of having them take over from Amtrak as a one-for-one replacement is complete fantasy with no grounding in reality.