Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

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mtuandrew
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by mtuandrew » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:55 pm

Drucifer wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:51 pm
That map needs an Amtrak overlay
Pardon the hand-drawn map
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electricron
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by electricron » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:23 am

Drucifer wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:51 pm
Try US traffic density map
Image
[/quote]
Excellent traffic map. It makes a poor choice because it only show highway traffic and it also includes trucking traffic. It does not reflect "all" intercity passenger traffic.

WhartonAndNorthern
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by WhartonAndNorthern » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:20 am

Keep in mind that routes like the Chief and Builder get political support (which results in support for the entire system) precisely because they serve routes not covered by the Interstate system.

Drucifer
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by Drucifer » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:56 am

mtuandrew wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:55 pm
Drucifer wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:51 pm
That map needs an Amtrak overlay
Pardon the hand-drawn map
It came out great.

rcthompson04
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by rcthompson04 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:48 pm

ExCon90 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:06 pm
Actually there never was a really good route from Philadelphia to Scranton; the best you could do was RDG-LV to Wilkes-Barre, then the Laurel Line, with not very frequent service. The only alternate I can think of was PRR to Manunka Chunk via Trenton, then DL&W, with a change at Stroudsburg, and that only once a day. For some reason that never was a strong corridor, even in the heyday of rail travel.
And you can't really blame SEPTA for the gap between Lansdale and Bethlehem; it's outside SEPTA's service area and when the county involved was asked to support continuance of the service they declined.
Service to Scranton or Lehigh Valley would have to come from NYP.

bdawe
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by bdawe » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:10 pm

Why realistically would there not be both? Six million people live in Philadelphia, people go there.
B. Dawe's map of routes and urban populations https://brendandawe.carto.com/viz/80b9d ... /embed_map" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; NOW updated with 2016 Canadian Populations

eolesen
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by eolesen » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:25 am

WhartonAndNorthern wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:20 am
Keep in mind that routes like the Chief and Builder get political support (which results in support for the entire system) precisely because they serve routes not covered by the Interstate system.
It's a weak argument.

The Builder runs parallel to US-10 in MN, and US-2 from North Dakota to Spokane... The Chief runs parallel to US-50 in Colorado and Kansas... Where exactly is there an Amtrak stop which isn't also served by a US plated highway?...

US highways are perhaps a step down from an interstate, but that's how networks work -- you have trunks and you have feeders...

rcthompson04
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by rcthompson04 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 am

bdawe wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:10 pm
Why realistically would there not be both? Six million people live in Philadelphia, people go there.
I don’t think service to either from Philly is realistic or competitive with car transport due to the likely slow speeds especially between Allentown and Scranton. I am not against a gradual restoration on the Bethlehem branch to Lehigh Valley starting in Quakertown.

MACTRAXX
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by MACTRAXX » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:42 am

rcthompson04 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:48 pm
ExCon90 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:06 pm
Actually there never was a really good route from Philadelphia to Scranton; the best you could do was RDG-LV to Wilkes-Barre, then the Laurel Line, with not very frequent service. The only alternate I can think of was PRR to Manunka Chunk via Trenton, then DL&W, with a change at Stroudsburg, and that only once a day. For some reason that never was a strong corridor, even in the heyday of rail travel.
And you can't really blame SEPTA for the gap between Lansdale and Bethlehem; it's outside SEPTA's service area and when the county involved was asked to support continuance of the service they declined.
Service to Scranton or Lehigh Valley would have to come from NYP.
Everyone - Further clarifying EC90's post: The former RDG Bethlehem Branch "gap" is the segment North
of Quakertown to Bethlehem (and Allentown) which was in Northampton and Lehigh Counties respectively.
The route between Lansdale and Quakertown owned by SEPTA is operated for freight service by the PNER
is in Montgomery and Bucks County - two of the five SEPTA member counties. I do agree that any new
service to Scranton-Wilkes Barre will likely operate from New York and Newark...MACTRAXX
EXPRESS TRAIN TO NEW YORK PENN STATION-NO JAMAICA ON THIS TRAIN-PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING TRAIN DOORS

mtuandrew
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by mtuandrew » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:42 am

I notice that Omaha-Salt Lake City-Portland and OMA-SLC-Los Angeles are marked as major traffic density routes. Those are some of those misleading corridors with very heavy freight traffic relative to passenger traffic; they definitely have some car traffic (particularly LAV-LAX and SLC-southeast Idaho) but I don’t think the full routes would be as successful as in the Union Pacific’s time.

rcthompson04
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by rcthompson04 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:26 am

mtuandrew wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:42 am
I notice that Omaha-Salt Lake City-Portland and OMA-SLC-Los Angeles are marked as major traffic density routes. Those are some of those misleading corridors with very heavy freight traffic relative to passenger traffic; they definitely have some car traffic (particularly LAV-LAX and SLC-southeast Idaho) but I don’t think the full routes would be as successful as in the Union Pacific’s time.
It would be interesting to see if there are any maps showing passenger service in the 1950s. There is not a lot of new track out there (actually a lot less track) than in the 1950s so it would be a good queue to what is viable in a fairly short order.

Station Aficionado
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by Station Aficionado » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:54 pm

rcthompson04 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:26 am
It would be interesting to see if there are any maps showing passenger service in the 1950s. There is not a lot of new track out there (actually a lot less track) than in the 1950s so it would be a good queue to what is viable in a fairly short order.
Some years back, NARP prooduced a series of historical maps, coded for frequency of service. Now that they’re RPA, those maps are paywalled (I let my membership lapse some years ago. If you’re a member, you can probably access them. If not, the google search “passenger map pre post Amtrak” will bring up images of the 62 and 67 networks, along with the original Amtrak network.

ExCon90
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by ExCon90 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:20 pm

rcthompson04 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:48 pm
ExCon90 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:06 pm
Actually there never was a really good route from Philadelphia to Scranton; the best you could do was RDG-LV to Wilkes-Barre, then the Laurel Line, with not very frequent service. The only alternate I can think of was PRR to Manunka Chunk via Trenton, then DL&W, with a change at Stroudsburg, and that only once a day. For some reason that never was a strong corridor, even in the heyday of rail travel.
And you can't really blame SEPTA for the gap between Lansdale and Bethlehem; it's outside SEPTA's service area and when the county involved was asked to support continuance of the service they declined.
Service to Scranton or Lehigh Valley would have to come from NYP.
Given the speeds on the NEC (and a nice straight line from Trenton almost to Newark) it might be faster at that. Just as soon as they finish restoring the Lackawanna cutoff ...

ExCon90
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by ExCon90 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:25 pm

rcthompson04 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:26 am
mtuandrew wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:42 am
I notice that Omaha-Salt Lake City-Portland and OMA-SLC-Los Angeles are marked as major traffic density routes. Those are some of those misleading corridors with very heavy freight traffic relative to passenger traffic; they definitely have some car traffic (particularly LAV-LAX and SLC-southeast Idaho) but I don’t think the full routes would be as successful as in the Union Pacific’s time.
It would be interesting to see if there are any maps showing passenger service in the 1950s. There is not a lot of new track out there (actually a lot less track) than in the 1950s so it would be a good queue to what is viable in a fairly short order.
There's one caveat: the difficulty and expense of discontinuing service back in ICC days meant that some passenger service was offered not because it was viable but because it was too hard to get rid of it.

Tadman
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Re: Redrawing the Amtrak Map

Post by Tadman » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:51 am

eolesen wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:25 am
WhartonAndNorthern wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:20 am
Keep in mind that routes like the Chief and Builder get political support (which results in support for the entire system) precisely because they serve routes not covered by the Interstate system.
It's a weak argument.

The Builder runs parallel to US-10 in MN, and US-2 from North Dakota to Spokane... The Chief runs parallel to US-50 in Colorado and Kansas... Where exactly is there an Amtrak stop which isn't also served by a US plated highway?...

US highways are perhaps a step down from an interstate, but that's how networks work -- you have trunks and you have feeders...
Totally agree. If the trains really helped people who didn't otherwise have reasonable access to the national network, they would only be able to help those within 30-100 miles, because the people that cant' get from North Dakota or Montana to Denver also can't get to the station 100 miles away. For that argument to work you'd have to have a grid of passenger trains criss-crossing rural areas, and we clearly don't.

It's some NARP made up thing. I read their stuff occasionally and it's a bit off.
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