70s Terminal Deficits: Just How Bad Was It?

[ExCon90]

Yes. There's actually a TRRA Technical & Historical Society which put out a very interesting history of the company, including some heated correspondence in which the Wabash bitterly complained about their trains being blocked by the Alton because of track assignments by the TRRA to their respective trains in the station.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Mr Ex Con, the Santa Fe had their own facility at 21st Street Chicago. Even towards "The End", not much sign of "we don't care anymore":

https://images.app.goo.gl/tLaDRTpXeTnWwVKo8

[gokeefe]

He's saying that ATSF was 50/50 on joining Amtrak, and they decided to do so because they were worried that CUS terminal fees would be obscene, or alternatively, Dearborn Station terminal fees would be even worse as ATSF was the only tenant left in that scenario. Evidently they felt those were the only two options.

I wasn't there at the time time, but I'm not clear why they didn't follow N&W's lead and run their Super Chief and Grand Canyon (only trains left?) from the N&W commuter platform mid-day. N&W decamped from Dearborn and used a track off to the side but not on-premises for their 1x to Orland Park. I don't know for sure, but it sound like they had similar reasons.

Appreciate the clarification. For whatever reason I don't recall ever reading about Norfolk & Western continuing commuter service after Amtrak.

Does anyone know/recall if terminal costs at Richmond Broad Street Station were also part of the problem for the Seaboard Coast Line?

[ExCon90]

Mr Ex Con, the Santa Fe had their own facility at 21st Street Chicago. Even towards "The End", not much sign of "we don't care anymore":

https://images.app.goo.gl/tLaDRTpXeTnWwVKo8

Thanks--so it might have been feasible to use the N&W's Dearborn "Annex" if the platform was long enough and the track layout permitted movement from that platform to the AT&SF. However, as it was, Santa Fe standards were so deeply ingrained that they endured for quite a while after A-Day.

[mtuandrew]

He's saying that ATSF was 50/50 on joining Amtrak, and they decided to do so because they were worried that CUS terminal fees would be obscene, or alternatively, Dearborn Station terminal fees would be even worse as ATSF was the only tenant left in that scenario. Evidently they felt those were the only two options.

I wasn't there at the time time, but I'm not clear why they didn't follow N&W's lead and run their Super Chief and Grand Canyon (only trains left?) from the N&W commuter platform mid-day. N&W decamped from Dearborn and used a track off to the side but not on-premises for their 1x to Orland Park. I don't know for sure, but it sound like they had similar reasons.

There are a few pics out there somewhere of this side terminal, but they're quite rare.

I wonder why N&W and Santa Fe didn’t consolidate with the Rock at LaSalle for that same reason.

[Tadman]

LaSalle was absolutely awful at that time, see if you can find any pics of the train shed by searching Rock commuter train pics.

[John_Perkowski]

Where did ATSF service their trains in Chicago--in their own coach yard, or was it done somewhere on C&WI? I've never really thought about it.

Their coach yard was at eighteenth street, near Chinatown. It has since been completely removed.

The first map is the 1963 USGS Topo, the second is the current

[MACTRAXX]

He's saying that ATSF was 50/50 on joining Amtrak, and they decided to do so because they were worried that CUS terminal fees would be obscene, or alternatively, Dearborn Station terminal fees would be even worse as ATSF was the only tenant left in that scenario. Evidently they felt those were the only two options.

I wasn't there at the time time, but I'm not clear why they didn't follow N&W's lead and run their Super Chief and Grand Canyon (only trains left?) from the N&W commuter platform mid-day. N&W decamped from Dearborn and used a track off to the side but not on-premises for their 1x to Orland Park. I don't know for sure, but it sound like they had similar reasons.

There are a few pics out there somewhere of this side terminal, but they're quite rare.

I wonder why N&W and Santa Fe didn’t consolidate with the Rock at LaSalle for that same reason.

Tad and Andrew: I remember the facility that the N&W Orland Park commuter train used in Downtown
Chicago - it was a spur track (or two) alongside S. Clark Street with a small square building at the SE
corner of W. Polk Street which contained an employee facility along with a ticket office.

This facility closed in the Fall of 1976 when the single N&W commuter train run was transferred over to
Union Station. The RTA replaced the N&W equipment adding a second pair of trains in 1979. As many
in the Forum know this would evolve in time into Metra's Southwest Service.

The N&W train laid over during the daytime on weekdays. On Friday evenings the train would deadhead
to Decatur for servicing and to allow the N&W crew - which were from central Illinois - to return home.
Some crew members lived in employee accommodations at the Orland Park depot during the week.

The small facility that the N&W used which was the last remaining portion of the Dearborn Station area
would have not been sufficient for the remaining ATSF intercity trains such as the Super Chief - it barely
was adequate for the single Orland Park weekday run.

Transferring the ATSF intercity train operation to Union Station was the right move by Amtrak. Noting the
close proximity to LaSalle Street Station from Polk and Clark Streets a move there would have made far
more sense then using any remaining Dearborn Station remnants...MACTRAXX

[east point]

Unfortunately Amtrak could not afford to keep the AT&SF car yard. That ended up in some kind of housing. Now Amtrak will be short of storage facilities if their many operations around CHI were to increase.

[gokeefe]

Does anyone have a sense of what the worst money loser of them all would have been? Cincinnati seems like a good possible candidate given the minimal schedule, enormous square footage and lack of other tenants.

[The EGE]

Cincinnati was real bad - losing $4 million per year. It was the first station to be replaced with an Amshack - less than 9 months after A-day.

[gokeefe]

$25.2 million in today's dollars for one train a day each way? Amazing ...

[John_Perkowski]

Omaha’s BN (CB&Q) Station and Denver Union Station could not have been cheap either.

[mtuandrew]

And Minneapolis GN Station had the problem of both a big station and a few miles of terminal track that included the entire Stone Arch Bridge across the Mississippi! (Grain traffic from downtown Minneapolis mills was about nil by 1970.) Worth far more as real estate than as railroad — same reason St. Paul Union Depot never even made it to Amtrak.

[ExCon90]

Many thanks to all for the pre-Amtrak information.