Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

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BM6569
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Re: Amtrak Long Island Service

Post by BM6569 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:16 am

But people who would use the service most likely aren't going to be your every commuters into the city and back but people traveling beyond.

Arlington
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Arlington » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:24 am

Amtrak's high-speed visioning document at one time showed going out Long island and then crossing the sound by tunnel to get to New Haven.

I think LI NIMBYs killed it.
rail-routes-alternative-3.jpg
But it is instructive in at least station-spacing and where the demand-area was thought to be:
"Ronkonkoma" (Islip Airport & the "Suffolk County" "outer Long Island station
"Nassau Hub" which would be someplace between Mineola and Hicksville (The "Nassau County" central Long Island station)


For me the only question is whether Queens is big enough to get its own stop (I say "yes")
A Jamaica Amtrak stop would be killer: EJZ Subway, most LIRR, + JFK Airtrain
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Last edited by Arlington on Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Jeff Smith » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:30 am

You’re never going to get serious speeds on the LIRR; too much slower speed rail traffic and too many crossings. Everything is DC based; you’d have to change the entire fleet.

As for the Amtrak plans to bypass the NH line by diverting from NH or NL via LI, that was pretty much DOA.
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SRich
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Re: Amtrak Long Island Service

Post by SRich » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:33 am

DutchRailnut wrote:correct, but I see a few problems , cab/atc differences, and new Amfleet 1 replacements would be push/pull with cab car.
Amtrak would need to double end the trains as per their own rules ??
How many LI natives will pay a ticket price twice that of LIRR ??
The LI natives who are on there way to DC/Boston already paying, more and then they go on Penn from LIRR to AMTK. When Amtrak is riding trough LI the trip on LIRR is not necassery anymore.

Why needs for a double end?
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DutchRailnut
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by DutchRailnut » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:15 am

cause a single engine specially on rear would gap a train in third rail coming up hill into Penn.
Amtrak made it a rule for dual modes to only be acceptable if engine is located at each end of train.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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charlesriverbranch
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by charlesriverbranch » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:29 am

Dig a tunnel under Block island Sound; join the old Narragansett Pier line and connect to the NEC at Kingston.

The Block Island Line: it'll be a mighty good road!

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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Arlington » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:27 pm

charlesriverbranch wrote:Dig a tunnel under Block island Sound; join the old Narragansett Pier line and connect to the NEC at Kingston.
The Block Island Line: it'll be a mighty good road!
I know that the above is mostly for the folksong pun, but New Haven is too important to skip. (And Stamford CT probably is too, which is why there wasn't enough "win" in HSR@LIRR to make it worth the fight).

That said, intercity Acela II is going to be an awesome way to go south from Long Island, and I'm sure there are also some "super commuters" who'd pay a premium fare for a once-weekly "meeting with clients" in NYC from "Nassau" or Ronkonkoma at 2x the LIRR fare and everyone'd be happy.

Today's trip from Ronkonkoma to NYP is 1h09 to 1h20 if you get an express (there are 4 each morning that are at least express-ish from "Greater Islip", but none at midday or evening.)

On an Acela, you could roughly do
RKK 5:00a
NAS 5:30a
NYP 6:00a
PHL 7:15a
WAS 8:55a

And it'd be lovely to do that every 4 hours to WAS and throw in a Keystone or two.

Basically, any Acela that wasn't to/from Boston, you'd want to send to/from RKK (if LIRR would let you)

A while back I'd discussed with ThirdRail7 "how come more Acela don't turn at STM or NHV" and the answer was two-fold:
1) They don't turn Acelas there now (extra facilities hassles)
2) Connecticut MNRR doesn't have the capacity (if a train gets a slot from CT to go East from Penn, it might as well go to Boston)

However, whatever the long-term solution is for the Keystones (and turning at HAR) would probably have a nice bookend in RKK.
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by mtuandrew » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:38 pm

Nasadowsk wrote:
Jeff Smith wrote:They’d only use DC in NYP and tunnels... arcing and MAS issues. Plus, Electrification is so costly, and DC would require a LOT of substations. They wouldn’t need it for the couple of trains they’d run.
I'm wondering if the LI's looking to push the Hamptons(tm) service off the Amtrak.

After that's out of the way, it's a no brainer to electrify to Riverhead, Patchogue (Speonk?), Oyster Bay, and Port Jeff, and dump diesel operation all together. Sure DC sucks, but extending the existing DC is a lot cheaper than changing to AC. Get a few DMU shuttles for the 3 passengers a day to Greenport and between Patchogue (Speonk?) and Montauk...
Exactly what I’m thinking. It’s an open secret that the DE/DM fleet is not long for this world after the New York State DM order.

And if One Mass does successfully foist DMUs or DEMUs on Amtrak Mechanical, a split NFK-WAS-NYP-Montauk/Hamptons service would be the ideal place for them.

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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by geico » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:06 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:cause a single engine specially on rear would gap a train in third rail coming up hill into Penn.
Amtrak made it a rule for dual modes to only be acceptable if engine is located at each end of train.
Only to the LIRR... Amtrak runs its 3rd rail P32s with only one engine thru Sunnyside and Penn.

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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by DutchRailnut » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:46 pm

yes but Amtrak engine is in lead, the restriction is for push/pull.
the new Amtrak cars are going to be push/pull.

and for all the fantasy about trains going to Boston or Washington, you really think Amtrak is going to plan engine swap ? or buy a * of long distance Dual modes ?
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Jeff Smith » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:03 pm

TimesUnion.com: Amtrak trains could serve Long Island

That’s going to be a pretty tough turn at the Bay Ridge Branch... :wink:
...
Amtrak officials didn't directly respond to emailed questions about possible extensions of Empire Corridor trains to Long Island and Northeast Corridor destinations such as Washington, D.C., and Newark International Airport.
...
And while Cuomo said the Amtrak trains serving Long Island could continue to Boston or Washington, one rail advocate pointed out that trains from Albany could also serve Long Island.
Bruce Becker of the Washington-based Rail Passengers Association said that at one time Amtrak ran so-called baseball specials from Albany directly to Shea Stadium in Queens.
...
Next stop, Willoughby
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by dgvrengineer » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:18 pm

What does Gov. Cuomo have over Amtrak that they suddenly give up all their demands for bridge rehab and access fees for a stinking study on Long Island service?

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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Arlington » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:30 pm

So, from an equipment standpoint, what equipment is ready to run out to Jamaica, Mineola, and Ronkonkoma? Just the Empire stuff? (which seems like a fine choice if there's no good NEC-LIRR equipment)
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by mtuandrew » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:11 pm

Jeff: do you mean the Oak Point Connection, or are you trying to get to the Barclays Center? :P

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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:44 pm

I have to disagree with the idea about Amtrak running their trains to Long Island. That is really something that the LIRR should be doing entirely. While many people might not want to change trains, when you switch at Penn Station NY, it's not like you are going outdoors and walking a mile during your transfer. From many parts of the system, especially the electrified lines, the LIRR runs many trains into and out of Penn Station. When the third track opens up on the Main Line, there will be a few more trains running to and from Penn Station.

While the article mentions the Amtrak to LI Study, the main focus here is running Metro North service over Amtrak's Hellgate Line in the East Bronx, primarily to serve neighborhoods that are not only not served by a lot of direct options to Midtown, but also provide a faster ride to Midtown over having to do either the express bus or a local bus to a subway. Before any Amtrak service to LI happens, the NEC has got to be upgraded as much as possible. The Pelham Bay Drawbridge is in dilapidated shape and has a speed restriction. On top of those reasons, it is only double track. When MNR starts running trains as well as Amtrak running more of their own trains, then more tracks need to be added on the entire Hellgate Line, if possible.

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