Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

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electricron
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by electricron » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:28 pm

We now know what the number of seats on the new Acela trains will be, 378 total business and first class seats. Source of data -
https://www.businessinsider.com/amtrak- ... oto-2019-8
FYI, the older Acela trains had 304 total business and first class seats per wiki.
That's an increase of 74 seats per train, or 24% per train.

hs3730
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by hs3730 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:40 pm

Unpopular opinion: I actually like the option of rear-facing seats. It creates more seating options to avoid sun glare while still being able to see out the window. It's something I liked about Brightline actually, the ability to intentionally select a rear-facing seat in advance before boarding.

That said in Japan on less-fancy (aka non-Shinkansen) trains the car cleaners will reverse the seats at the terminal (and they employ a rather large number of car cleaners to make sure this process can be completed in ~10 minutes for 12 car trains).

gokeefe
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by gokeefe » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:49 am

electricron wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:28 pm
That's an increase of 74 seats per train, or 24% per train.
Huge increase in capacity. The current trainsets have 65 seats per BusinessClass car. All of this without having to make major modifications at the maintenance facilities.
gokeefe

electricron
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by electricron » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:55 pm

hs3730 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:40 pm
That said in Japan on less-fancy (aka non-Shinkansen) trains the car cleaners will reverse the seats at the terminal (and they employ a rather large number of car cleaners to make sure this process can be completed in ~10 minutes for 12 car trains).
It is amazing how much easier it is to employ a huge staff to turn trains quickly in a nation where the trains actually arrive on time, to the minute. It is not that easy and affordable to employ a huge staff to turn trains where the trains do not arrive on time and can be hours late over half the time. Every man hour that qualifies as overtime costs Amtrak at least 50% more.

ExCon90
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by ExCon90 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:36 pm

bostontrainguy wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:45 pm

You are talking as if this is a new concept that has never been done before! How on earth has passenger railroading survived this long with rotating seats?
But passenger railroading didn't survive--at least, not as we knew it. That's why we have Amtrak.

I usually prefer facing forward, but the rotating mechanism on those seats took a beating when a trainman walked down the aisle yanking two at a time (left and right simultaneously), one after another.

bostontrainguy
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by bostontrainguy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:36 pm

ExCon90 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:36 pm
bostontrainguy wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:45 pm

You are talking as if this is a new concept that has never been done before! How on earth has passenger railroading survived this long with rotating seats?
But passenger railroading didn't survive--at least, not as we knew it. That's why we have Amtrak.

I usually prefer facing forward, but the rotating mechanism on those seats took a beating when a trainman walked down the aisle yanking two at a time (left and right simultaneously), one after another.
I volunteered on many Amfleet equipped railfan trips and turned those seats around myself. You step on a pedal and then rotate the seats around 180 degrees. It really isn't that big a deal. You did have to make sure you started at the right end though.

I assume that the way Amtrak increased capacity so much on these new trainsets, which are not much longer than the present Acelas, is by reducing seat pitch quite a bit which was accomplished by squeezing in as many fixed seats as possible.

I don't like riding backwards and I don't believe many people do. Sorry but I really have to laugh at the "safer" argument since it is completely reversed if the train gets rear ended. And I don't believe many people take the train and fear it's going to crash so they want to ride backwards to prepare for the inevitable.

I think the fact is Amtrak went with fixed 50/50 seats because they could jam in more seats and that was the only goal.

gokeefe
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by gokeefe » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:13 pm

bostontrainguy wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:36 pm
I assume that the way Amtrak increased capacity so much on these new trainsets, which are not much longer than the present Acelas, is by reducing seat pitch quite a bit which was accomplished by squeezing in as many fixed seats as possible.
The new trainsets use articulated trucks and consequently have some space saved in between the vestibules. The power cars are also significantly shorter. I believe seat pitch is the same.
gokeefe

Arlington
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Arlington » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:50 pm

Riding backwards is diffrent and new, which is all it takes in this forum to be denounced as a plot against customers, despite global (and commuter) acceptance.

I predict it will be a non issue with customers (as it has for Brightline) and a clear win for mechanical and operational simplicity.


[Edit: with reserved seating, those truly passionate about facing forward can/will pick a seat in the forward facing half. Like window/aisle, fro/back will be just another 50/50 option. ]
Last edited by Arlington on Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn

Nasadowsk
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Nasadowsk » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:33 pm

Arlington wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:50 pm
Riding backwards is diffrent and new, which is all it takes in this forum to be denounced as a plot against customers, despite global (and commuter) acceptance.

I predict it will be a non issue with customers (as it has for Brightline) and a clear win for mechanical and operational simplicity.
I agree. It's a non issue elsewhere in the world, and most European trains out accelerate US ones by a good amount, which is where it'd be most annoying. A lot of commuter equipment has fixed seats now, even in the US.

Acela150
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Acela150 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:01 pm

gokeefe wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:13 pm
bostontrainguy wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:36 pm
I assume that the way Amtrak increased capacity so much on these new trainsets, which are not much longer than the present Acelas, is by reducing seat pitch quite a bit which was accomplished by squeezing in as many fixed seats as possible.
The new trainsets use articulated trucks and consequently have some space saved in between the vestibules. The power cars are also significantly shorter. I believe seat pitch is the same.
Correct. Seat pitch stays the same with the new trains. And with the articulated trucks it creates significant space. According to the article featured in the September issue of trains the new trainsets will be about 30 feet longer then the current fleet. The new trainsets will feature 9 passenger cars. 7 Business Class cars, 1 Cafe, and 1 First Class car. The passenger cars on the new trains will obviously be shorter then the current fleet.

If you aren't a subscriber to Trains Magazine I can strongly recommend one picks up a copy of the September issue that has a 3 page article on the new fleet.

bostontrainguy
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by bostontrainguy » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:37 am

Arlington wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:50 pm
[Edit: with reserved seating, those truly passionate about facing forward can/will pick a seat in the forward facing half. Like window/aisle, fro/back will be just another 50/50 option. ]
I just read an article that says Amtrak MAY charge a fee for picking your seat as some airlines apparently do.

Arlington
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Arlington » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:15 am

Most European trains charge separately for seat reservation. Tech makes it easier. Enforcement ("can't sit there, little electronic sign over I says reserved NWK-PHL") would take getting used to. Some would reserve, some not)
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn

Gilbert B Norman
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Gilbert B Norman » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:57 pm

I chose to reserve a seat on Euro City 115 Munich Ost to Salzburg last month. I did not need a "rerun" of my 2017 trip when I was put off by "Brunhilde" (a DB Conductrix who could have played the part) halfway to Salzburg because I boarded a train other than booked. I found the seat without incident; and even if it was one I would not have selected (asile; rear facing), it was nice to have it. I even got a "thank you, Mr. Norman" from the Conductor.

Returning on Euro City 390, that originated at Salzburg; so why pay the €5,00 service charge. I found exactly the seat I wanted; left forward riding, center car, unobstructed view.

With hardly the number of trains to address as has DB, I'm surprised Amtrak cannot, or will not, address the reservation and specific seat or room selection as do the airlines.

If the various European rail systems can "work it out", why can't, or won't. Amtrak do same?

ExCon90
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by ExCon90 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:28 pm

Apparently where there's no will there's no way ...

gokeefe
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by gokeefe » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:45 pm

That is most certainly not the problem. Up until recently I believe Amtrak didn't see any potential benefit. At least on Acela they are now at a point where they can charge for this service.
gokeefe

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