Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

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electricron
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by electricron » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:20 pm

They could be using P40s or P42s as cab cars?
Amtrak owns 18 P32AC-DM locomotives, isn't that enough without putting too much stress on them?
Amtrak trains per day using the Empire Corridor.
Adirondack (2 trains)
Maple Leaf (2 trains)
Lake Shore Limited (2 trains)
Ethan both directionssoAllen (2 trains)
Empire Services (16 trains)
That's 24 trains a day those 18 dual mode locomotives must support. But on most of these trains, the same locomotive can run the round trip, halving the effective number of trains to support. So 24 potentially becomes 12. That leaves 6 locomotives potentially idle every day. That's a 33% pad.

F-line to Dudley via Park
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by F-line to Dudley via Park » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:53 pm

Would have to be using other Gennie diesels for cabs, because there aren't enough Metroliners to go around and the F40 cabbages don't clear Penn.

ThirdRail7
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by ThirdRail7 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:45 pm

Don't over think it. I didn't say Empire trains. I said Albany trains for a specific reason. . There are a few couplets that operate exclusively between ALB-NYP-ALB unless there is a service disruption. They manipulated the turns to allow a few trains of those trains to operate with a P-32 on each end so that set doesn't have to go to SSYD. There was one exception and that was the occasion in which they slapped a P-32 on rear of 290 at ALB and turned it for 291 at NYP.

The rest of them are still going to SSYD...for now. Who knows what the future will bring once large swaths of the station become inaccessible from certain tracks.
adamj023 wrote:No need to rework Penn Station to push trains elsewhere. It will all be fixed mostly by summer with intermittent delays till 2018.
.

I think it should be considered. I am in full agreement with these statements:
Nasadowsk wrote:
Maybe it's time NYC, the feds, and everyone else come bite the bullet and do what's pretty obvious at this point: Replace/rebuild Penn Station from the ground up. Redo the track layout for modern patterns, redo the passenger level for modern traffic flows, etc.

Everyone's so hopeful about Gateway, but it just dumps into the existing Penn, which can't handle the human traffic, and barely can handle the train traffic.
Even with a new station and more platforms, it won't do much if you're dumping people on the same narrow platforms every minute or so. Even if you rebuild every track, you still have an old power supply and trains as well as passengers have issues. With the current traffic flow, any stub of the toe can ruin rush hour.
D.Carleton wrote:The consensus is NYP has overshot it's capacity.The time is long past for serious consideration as to why all of NJT and LIRR commuters must go to NYP. Diverting some LIRR trains to GCT will help. Even so, New York is of sufficient size to warrant a third major rail depot.
I'm not sure a third station is the answer, but I still see no reason why EVERYTHING MUST go to Penn. If you provided frequent service at Hoboken, I'm sure it would have more use. However, there a gaping holes in the schedule. If you had to wait three hours for your next train or go to NYP, which would you do?

Balance your terminals and schedules.
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EuroStar
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by EuroStar » Mon May 01, 2017 7:36 am

There is practically no space for more trains at Hoboken. They manage to divert Midtown Direct trains there when Penn is in big trouble, but that causes large delays at Hoboken. In another decade or two NJT might get to filling the Long Slip canal and adding another 6 flood-proof station tracks, but with their history of diverting capital money to operations, I would not keep my hopes high.

I never understood the crazy fascination with ferries. There is no doubt that they are useful to some that work close to the ferry slips on the Manhattan side, but most people work far from them and given that there is no subway walking distance from the ferry slips, most people just won't take them. Period. I personally would be more likely to drive than to suffer through a train ride to Hoboken, ferry, then the ferry bus to the subway and then the subway. When the commute time one way exceeds 75 minutes on a day when the trains run on time, I won't be adding another 15 minutes toying around with the ferry.

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JamesRR
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by JamesRR » Mon May 01, 2017 9:09 am

EuroStar wrote:
I never understood the crazy fascination with ferries. There is no doubt that they are useful to some that work close to the ferry slips on the Manhattan side, but most people work far from them and given that there is no subway walking distance from the ferry slips, most people just won't take them. Period. I personally would be more likely to drive than to suffer through a train ride to Hoboken, ferry, then the ferry bus to the subway and then the subway. When the commute time one way exceeds 75 minutes on a day when the trains run on time, I won't be adding another 15 minutes toying around with the ferry.

Agree. Ferries are good for short term issues, but they're not going to be able to handle the volumes that the trains diverting to Hoboken will produce.

What NJT needs to do during this project is run special buses up the NJTurnpike - position them at the majors stations on the NEC, like Hamilton and Princeton Junction (or near there). Park and ride. Have a fleet and use them in conjunction with a limited train schedule. It's about time they come up with practical contingency plans, since this isn't the first time train service has been disrupted (hurricanes, power failures, etc).

Greg Moore
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by Greg Moore » Mon May 01, 2017 9:14 am

Downside with busses is it's already a long line to get them through the Lincoln Tunnel as is. More busses would only make it worse.

I think trebuchets over the North River is the only viable solution. :-)

More realistically, it's really a matter of biting the bullet and spending the billions required to get all the work done.

BTW, I can't recall with the west side project going on, is there ANY access from above (i.e. street level) left or does all equipment have to come in/out through the rail tunnels?
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EuroStar
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by EuroStar » Mon May 01, 2017 11:11 am

Greg Moore wrote:BTW, I can't recall with the west side project going on, is there ANY access from above (i.e. street level) left or does all equipment have to come in/out through the rail tunnels?
There is little daylight left over Yard "E", but it seems unlikely that they could drop in any materials or equipment through there. I would assume all equipment and materials comes through the tunnels.

jamesinclair
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by jamesinclair » Mon May 01, 2017 11:12 am

EuroStar wrote:There is practically no space for more trains at Hoboken. They manage to divert Midtown Direct trains there when Penn is in big trouble, but that causes large delays at Hoboken. In another decade or two NJT might get to filling the Long Slip canal and adding another 6 flood-proof station tracks, but with their history of diverting capital money to operations, I would not keep my hopes high.

I never understood the crazy fascination with ferries. There is no doubt that they are useful to some that work close to the ferry slips on the Manhattan side, but most people work far from them and given that there is no subway walking distance from the ferry slips, most people just won't take them. Period. I personally would be more likely to drive than to suffer through a train ride to Hoboken, ferry, then the ferry bus to the subway and then the subway. When the commute time one way exceeds 75 minutes on a day when the trains run on time, I won't be adding another 15 minutes toying around with the ferry.
You do not need to take the subway if you ride the ferry and your destination is in Manhattan

http://www.nywaterway.com/UserFiles/Ima ... -Combo.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is also a free bus in the financial district

bmvguye39
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by bmvguye39 » Mon May 01, 2017 12:51 pm

Maybe they should reinvest in opening the old CNJ Terminal as well... as its directly across from the Financial District. Most of the facility is still there except for the trackage so add the tracks back and start up ferry service! It would also help alleviate future capacity constraints when new tunnel work starts around Penn Station as well.

Noel Weaver
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by Noel Weaver » Mon May 01, 2017 1:11 pm

I rode most of the old ferries between New York and New Jersey. I think the only one I never used was the Erie as they had already moved at least some of their trains to Hoboken by the time I was wandering about on my own. I think using ferries is a good alternative to trying to cram more passengers into the PATH system at Hoboken. The Barkley Street Ferry was not a long or difficult walk to the nearest subway line and the CNJ ferry was a couple of blocks away from a subway stop as well. I think Hoboken can handle a good number of trains provided they find a place to lay them up outside the station tracks, it can be done and it will need to be done in order to accomodate the passengers who are currently using the system. THEY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING AND BEST THEY NOT WAIT MUCH LONGER TO DO IT. Does it matter to me at this point? No not really as i live in South Florida and may not ever return north again and certainly will not ever be a regular rider on NJT but thinking of those who need these trains, they had better not wait much longer before getting their act together. Whether the parties involved like each other or not and I am sure that at least some of them hate each other, they need to work together for the COMMON GOOD.
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east point
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by east point » Mon May 01, 2017 1:40 pm

Until a couple weeks ago Hoboken had the over run platform closed for repairs. It would appear that there still is some surplus capacity at Hoboken sine that is now repaired and open. However NJ needs to immediately to build some extra capacity in case of a north river tunnel bore failure as well as for these NYPS repairs.

Ridgefielder
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by Ridgefielder » Mon May 01, 2017 3:00 pm

bmvguye39 wrote:Maybe they should reinvest in opening the old CNJ Terminal as well... as its directly across from the Financial District. Most of the facility is still there except for the trackage so add the tracks back and start up ferry service! It would also help alleviate future capacity constraints when new tunnel work starts around Penn Station as well.
Except the trackage... and the Newark Bay draw. Rebuilding that over the Hackensack and the Passaic would cost billions and require approval from the Coast Guard since both rivers are technically navigable arms of the sea. You'd also need to reinstall 4+ miles of track from Roselle Park through downtown Elizabeth that was removed after the Aldene connection routed Raritan Valley trains into Newark Penn via the ex-Lehigh Valley.

I'm afraid that aside from Hoboken, the legacy Jersey side stations-- Exchange Place (PRR), Communipaw (CNJ), Jersey City (Erie), Weehawken (NYC)-- are gone forever.

rr503
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by rr503 » Mon May 01, 2017 7:52 pm

If NJT did a revamp of dispatching practices at Hoboken, this whole process would be a lot easier. Trains currently dwell for long periods of time at their platforms during the rushes, a situation that reduces capacity by a large amount. To get people into the city proper, squeezing whatever little capacity is left out of PATH would help, as would (maybe as a part of the Mayor's otherwise questionable NYC ferry project?) expanded ferry service with some sort of bus shuttle to and from employment centres. Otherwise, smart management of the project is the best I can think of.

bmvguye39
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by bmvguye39 » Tue May 02, 2017 10:15 am

Ridgefielder wrote:
bmvguye39 wrote:Maybe they should reinvest in opening the old CNJ Terminal as well... as its directly across from the Financial District. Most of the facility is still there except for the trackage so add the tracks back and start up ferry service! It would also help alleviate future capacity constraints when new tunnel work starts around Penn Station as well.
Except the trackage... and the Newark Bay draw. Rebuilding that over the Hackensack and the Passaic would cost billions and require approval from the Coast Guard since both rivers are technically navigable arms of the sea. You'd also need to reinstall 4+ miles of track from Roselle Park through downtown Elizabeth that was removed after the Aldene connection routed Raritan Valley trains into Newark Penn via the ex-Lehigh Valley.

I'm afraid that aside from Hoboken, the legacy Jersey side stations-- Exchange Place (PRR), Communipaw (CNJ), Jersey City (Erie), Weehawken (NYC)-- are gone forever.
Or just as an alternate, come in across the Newark Bay draw and then north directly up to the terminal... looks like all land and no other water to cross... just rebuilding the throat trackage straight to the terminal. Then reroute some of the traffic to go there instead of all the way to Penn Station. Doesnt matter where things 'used to be' or how it was done in the past... just an alternate connection into Manhattan that diverts traffic from Penn but still could provide direct access to the Financial District, etc.

Gilbert B Norman
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Re: Penn Station Trackwork

Post by Gilbert B Norman » Tue May 02, 2017 11:34 am

Ridgefielder wrote:I'm afraid that aside from Hoboken, the legacy Jersey side stations-- Exchange Place (PRR), Communipaw (CNJ), Jersey City (Erie), Weehawken (NYC)-- are gone forever.
To perfect, Mr. Ridgefield, the Erie station was in Hoboken immediately South of the remaining D,L,& W Hoboken Terminal. The NYC West Shore station was, as correctly noted, upriver in Weehawken.

The remaining stations, CNJ and PRR were within the municipal limits of Jersey City. I'll pass whether either were within the JC community of Communipaw.

The CNJ headhouse remains at Liberty Park; only D,L,&W remains active.

Closing on this note, where will the Spike Lee film "When The Tunnels Flood" suggest the trains go?

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