Cardinal discussion

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, Amtrak67 of America, Tadman, gprimr1

Philly Amtrak Fan
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:22 am
Location: Philly Area

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by Philly Amtrak Fan » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:49 pm

Alcochaser wrote:A couple things to consider here.

First. Anything that replaces it has to be longer then the 750mile length under the 2008 PRIIA act
If Amtrak cancels the Cardinal, I have all faith Virginia will add a Lynchburger to take its place considering the success of the current one. If that train is daily, it's a bonus for CVS-NYP compared to the current Cardinal. The question is what happens to Cincinnati? Back when the National Limited was canceled, Missouri introduced STL-KCY trains while Pennsylvania added the Pennsylvanian. Would Cincinnati stand for no service or would they go to Indiana and work with them to extend the Hoosier State? Nothing will happen to Ohio until Kasich leaves office but maybe Cincinnati takes the initiative?
Alcochaser wrote:A couple things to consider here.

Third. Columbus to Pittsburgh direct is now NO GO. It's in the hands of Genesee and Wyoming. And it's a 25MPH mess.
That sucks.
Alcochaser wrote:
Now.... Another all mainline route that misses Indy is possible that uses most of the Cardinal route thru WV, if you can solve the Deadhead issue.
This would use the Cardinal route to Ashland KY. However before you get to South Portsmouth you turn right at Northern Junction and continue on the C&O mainline to Columbus OH then you would keep on the route until you got to Fostoria OH. At Fostoria OH you would turn onto the former route of the Three Rivers and head to Chicago.
If you haven't figured out yet, I have no interest in anything between Cincinnati and Charlottesville. There are no relevant markets. I'm looking for better faster routes connecting Pennsylvania and Ohio and the major cities of the states and/or go from Chicago to the NEC (Indy is another area of interest). West Virginia is about a 200 mile detour south and simply not worth it.

https://www.narprail.org/site/assets/fi ... s_2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Population within 25 miles of the following stations:

Cincinnati: 1,748,725

Ashland: 323,357
Huntington: 299,913
Charleston: 279,421
Staunton: 239,551
Connorsville: 214,866
Montgomery: 206,420
S. Portsmouth: 199,942
Prince: 160,758
Thurmond: 149,762
Hinton: 149,621
Maysville: 100,580
Alderson: 67,325
Clifton Forge: 64,972
White Sulphur Springs: 59,028

Alcochaser
Posts: 866
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:20 am

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by Alcochaser » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:36 pm

Cincinnati would be obviously best served by the 3C train.

VA could be served by this Lynchburger train.

Other then that. The NYP,PHI,PIT,CLE,MARION OHIO, IND, CHI train would be the best option for fulfilling your other thoughts.

The Cleveland to IND route is a mostly double track route that is under capacity and not even remotely coal dependent. It's pretty much all 79MPH ready.

This would also enable the train to grab the deadheads.

David Benton
Posts: 8712
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by David Benton » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:05 pm

Population does not always mean ridership, many big cities don't have large ridership figures and v.v.
Moderator worldwide railfan , Rail travel & trip reports
The only train trips I regret are the ones I didn't take.

User avatar
Rockingham Racer
Posts: 3553
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:25 pm

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by Rockingham Racer » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:02 pm

It doesn't help that there are no trains, either. Columbus, OH comes to mind.

Arlington
Posts: 4068
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by Arlington » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:23 pm

Mostly agree. CIN (and CLT) have large, prosperous cities and support plenty of air service, but, being served in the middle of the night kills ridership.

That said, the Cardinal has several cities that should punch above their weight:
White Sulfur Springs (Greenbrier resort)
Clifton Forge (Natural Bridge & Homestead Resort)
...and much of West Virginia which has few good airline options (UNlike Cincinnati, which is still relatively well served, thanks to Corp HQ business)

If the Cardinal is partly cut CIN-IND, PRIIA still obligates Amtrak to serve all the other cities along its route, and the WV stuff should be very doable as far as Huntington.
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn

User avatar
BandA
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:47 am

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by BandA » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:22 pm

Why can't Amtrak use IP Hoosier State to transport Amtrak equipment to Beach Grove? Too much BadWill? There's even an Amtrak employee driving!

Backshophoss
Posts: 6318
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by Backshophoss » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:40 pm

Power on IP's Hoosier State is a pair of ex NJT GP40-H's,well used,but cared for.
Believe it's not part of the "operating agreement" between the state of IN,IP,and Amtrak.
Equipment moves are done when the Cardinal runs,including IP's needed deadhead moves for
when they run.
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

bdawe
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:06 pm
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by bdawe » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:26 pm

How much freight is on the line between Chicago and Indianapolis?
B. Dawe's map of routes and urban populations https://brendandawe.carto.com/viz/80b9d ... /embed_map" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; NOW updated with 2016 Canadian Populations

Alcochaser
Posts: 866
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:20 am

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by Alcochaser » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:14 am

Bout the same as it ever has been.

Q360 and Q361 ind chi slop freight. Sometimes not even both, as one will sometimes get sent the long way. Some grain.

Higher then usual density of local traffic has always been its salvation. Supports a two trick local out of Connersville.

The line is height restricted, and it cannot be fixed thanks to the restriction having historical designation. (Overpass in Hamilton)

east point
Posts: 1276
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by east point » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:31 pm

Alcochaser wrote: The line is height restricted, and it cannot be fixed thanks to the restriction having historical designation. (Overpass in Hamilton)
So why not raise the overpass in place ? It happens all the time here.

CHTT1
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:38 pm

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by CHTT1 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:41 pm

Or lower the track level under the bridge? I don't think CSX is that interested in fully utilizing the old Monon. They send just about everything up the old C&EI.

spatcher
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:16 pm
Location: NW Indiana

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by spatcher » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:44 pm

Alcochaser wrote:Bout the same as it ever has been.

Q360 and Q361 ind chi slop freight. Sometimes not even both, as one will sometimes get sent the long way. Some grain.

Higher then usual density of local traffic has always been its salvation. Supports a two trick local out of Connersville.

The line is height restricted, and it cannot be fixed thanks to the restriction having historical designation. (Overpass in Hamilton)
I think you have the Indy-Cincy section confused with the Chicago-Indy section.

Q643 and Q642 are the freights between Chiago and Indy. Q644 is the local that runs from Indy to Lafayette. There is another local that runs north out of Lafayette. Multiple grain trains run up and down the Monon. Ethanol off the TP&W runs south, along with unit trains out of Linden. NS has a daily local out of Lafayette to Nucor in Crawfordsville. Ore trains have not run since October, however the plant was just sold last week, with plans to restart it.

Alcochaser
Posts: 866
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:20 am

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by Alcochaser » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:49 pm

Correct. I had a brain fart and thought he was asking for the IND CIN portion.

I will add that there is a South end local J773 out of Lafayette that runs south to the end of track and returns.
The Crawfordsville IND section has a couple of locals that are run out of Avon.
Q644 is really a transfer train. it doesn't provide any switching. It's to relive Q642 and Q643 the burden of moving the LAF-Avon cars.

IND to CHI has actually gotten decent upgrades from CSXT.

If you can believe it, CSX FINALLY installed a CTC switch in Crawfordsville. So no more stupid 10mph connection.
Up and down the old Monon there are growing segments of CTC. Plus CSXT has installed a couple new sidings.

mtuandrew
Posts: 6008
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 am
Location: the Manassas Gap Independent Line

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by mtuandrew » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:13 pm

From someone who hasn't taken the Cardinal since it was a Superliner train :P what problem areas (on CSX, ignoring Dyer and north) need to be fixed to bring the ex-Monon/NYC route CHI-IND fully up to Class 3 and 59 mph MAS? I'm including hand-thrown switches, slow crossovers, short and poorly-spaced sidings, dark territory and the like too.

Alcochaser
Posts: 866
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:20 am

Re: Cardinal discussion

Post by Alcochaser » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:30 pm

Okay there are two sections, and they have different problems.

From Dyer to Crawfordsville, the signal system is all new. It's ether CTC or ABS with track warrants. Ether will support 79MPH max speed.
Indeed this section USED to be 79mph max speed. The problem was the bolted rail. It was dropped to 60MPH MAS because of it.

But a lot of it has since been replaced with welded rail. CSX has been unmotivated to bother restoring the original MAS on sections the rail has been replaced on.

From Crawfordsville to Indianapolis it's all welded rail. But it totally lacks a signal system west of Clermont Indiana.

Return to “Amtrak”