Cardinal discussion

[mtuandrew]

And there should be a combined Capitol Limited-Broadway Limited running single-level equipment, taking the Cardinal’s spot as a reasonable NYC-CHI transportation option. If that changes, we can either chop the Cardinal into two day trains or lengthen the schedule between CIN and CHW so it essentially becomes two.

And ideally in the future, there should be two separate trains via PGH (alongside the Lake Shore Limited and a new twin via BUF.) One, a CHI-PGH-PHL-NYC Three Rivers section of the Cap, and the other a CHI-PGH-WAS section of the Broadway Limited - I suggest the name Ambassador or the Liberty (Limited).

[dgvrengineer]

It seems to me that the Cardinal schedule from Amtrak inception through 1976 that left Washington around 6pm, got to White Sulphur Springs before midnight and Cincinnati around 8am would be the answer to giving Cincinnati to Chicago daylight service. The biggest problem is you basically loose all Chicago to the west connections.

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Those from the NEC still have the LSL and CL for that purpose. As for CIN and IND, would they rather have west connections or service at better hours?

[east point]

Why do you keep ignoring the stations ALX, Manassas, Culpeper, CVS who would need to connec to Capitol at WASH o very early Roanoker or Crescent.. Then you have Staunton, Clifton Forge, White Sulphur Springs, Hinton, Charleston Wv, Huntington, Ashland, Ky among other. You kill their chances of getting connections at both CHI and WASH. All those stations at present can make fairly good connections. Of course daily Cardinals are really needed and an extension of the Hosure to Cincinnaniti at the times you are proposing.

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Because to me CIN and IND are larger cities/markets and more important.

[electricron]

More important than making the connection in Chicago for trains to Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Antonio, and New Orleans? Some of those connections are to cities four times larger than Indianapolis and Cincinnati put together. Really?

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If the west coast cities wanted to go to New York or DC, they can take the LSL or CL. I highly doubt many of them want to go to Hinton, West Virginia.

[Arlington]

[EDIT] Oh. Nobody can ever change anything for the convenience of anybody because tradition dictates that the only money that can be made in Chicago is made by connecting sleeper passengers [/EDIT]

y running slow between Cincinnati and Charleston. Like coal train slow, holding at CIN or CHW respectively until a 7:30am departure. It transforms one train into a CHI-CIN day train and a CHW-NYP day train sharing the same cars. That slow running and the holds also should eliminate the issues with CSX causing ever-increasing delays and making it impossible to catch up.

^+1 I think this is genius.

I do know that UVa kids consider the Cardinal a good way to go to/from IND/CHI from CVS and I don't think going slower would change much of that usefulness. In fact it would make it a better trip to/from CIN too. It plays to the Sleeper's strength: cheaper than a hotel in downtown CIN. I see how it works westbound. How do you picture it eastbound?

By adding an additional bus bridge - dep CHW 5am arr CIN 7am (with guaranteed connection) and vice versa - you extend the reach of those day trains.

I'm a little worried this won't work: I see CHW to CIN is 200 miles, meaning you'd have to leave at 4am to get to the other end by 7:30a

The Cardinal serves various places that the other sleeper trains NY to Chicago do not.

But why are we giving the single biggest intermediate city on the WV side (CIN) the crappiest possible times?
Westbound: CIN 1:31am IND 6am
Eastbound: IND Midnight CIN 3:27am

[mtuandrew]

Arlington: lemme work that schedule out, but basically an early departure from Chicago for a late dinner-time arrival in Cinci, then an early departure from Charleston for a late dinner-time in New York.

Maybe instead of Charleston, we hold the eastbound at Huntington and keep the westbound hold at Cincinnati, like so:

Eastbound 50:

Dep CHI 12p Central
Arr CIN 10:20p Eastern
(Mayville, Portsmouth, Ashland)
Arr HUN 7:00a (realistically, any time after 1a)
Dep HUN 7:16a
Arr NYP 9:58p

Westbound 51:

Dep NYP 6:45a
Arr HUN 9:51p
(Ashland, Portsmouth, Mayville... slowly)
Arr CIN 7:00a (anytime after 1am)
Dep CIN 7:10a Eastern
Arr CHI 5:30p Central

Not the best CHI-IND schedule (dep IND 1:20p westbound, arr IND 4:20p eastbound) but the Cardinal is not really a business train anyway.

[lirrelectrician]

Hello all,
What about a complete reversal of the schedule. Lets say leave NYP at 545pm. Would get to Charleston at 734am. Cincy at 1236pm. Inday at 5pm and Chicago 905pm. Reverse, leave Chicago at 645am. cincy at 427pm. Charleston at 921pm. etc. Would give daytime service from Charleston to Chicago. Middle of the night through Charlottsville. Plus make train daily.

Mike Scholz

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Charlottesville currently has the 2nd highest ridership among Cardinal stations behind Chicago, I wouldn't want to put them in the graveyard shift either.

I'm also not a fan of "parking" the train overnight anywhere. Why make a horribly long trip even longer?

This is the schedule I had in mind.

Rescheduled Daily Cardinal April 2016.pdf

(138.6 KiB) Downloaded 134 times

The train could leave NYP a lot later than 6:45am in the morning westbound and arrive a lot earlier than 9:58am eastbound.

[mtuandrew]

Gotta admit, Philly AF, I like that schedule in terms of connectivity. It’s horrible for sightseeing and for West Virginia - and we all know you have thoughts on Amtrak service to WV - but does make the Cardinal useful for the larger population centers. It also misses the worst of rush hour commuter rail both ways in all major cities.

One more reason that West Virginia and Virginia need to work on a daily Regional (NYP-)WAS-CVS-CHW.

[Tadman]

One more reason that West Virginia and Virginia need to work on a daily Regional (NYP-)WAS-CVS-CHW.

That raises an interesting question: where do most West Virginians travel to? Put another way, if most Michigan people are going to Chicago or Detroit, and most Virginians are going between Tidewater, Richmond, and Washington, where is that travel pattern that makes sense for a WV regional train? I don't know that Cinci, Richmond, and DC are the answer.

This map linked below indicates three population centers: Morgantown in the north as a satellite of Pittsburgh and home to WV University, Harpers Ferry in the eastern tip as a satellite of DC/Norther VA, and Kanawha County in the center as its own center. The Cardinal connects none of the three centers, but does connect Kanawha County to DC and Cinci. The Capitol Limited connects Harpers to DC but so does MARC. And Morgantown stands alone, probably an hour drive to Pitt.

Is the Cardinal the true answer to WV transportation? It doesn't look like it. The Cardinal only really serves the center of the state.

[mtuandrew]

Well, today Charleston-Yeager Airport (KCHW) lists five departures and four arrivals, one pair each for Philadelphia, Atlanta, Houston, and Charlotte (with two KCHW-KCLT departures instead of one.) Doesn’t exactly tell us much though, since those are all just hubs and could be service to anywhere, but I have a feeling the KPHL travelers are going to New York and New Jersey at least as much as Pennsylvania, and the KHOU travelers to the mountain west and Pacific coast.

If we want to look at the WV road network instead, it points to Charlotte, Greensboro & Raleigh NC, Lexington KY, Pittsburgh PA, Cleveland OH, and Richmond & Hampton Roads VA. Surprisingly, access to Cincinnati OH and Indianapolis IN is fairly indirect, and likewise toward Washington DC (though I bet those are still major destinations.)

[lirrelectrician]

Charlottesville currently has the 2nd highest ridership among Cardinal stations behind Chicago, I wouldn't want to put them in the graveyard shift either.

I'm also not a fan of "parking" the train overnight anywhere. Why make a horribly long trip even longer?

This is the schedule I had in mind.

Rescheduled Daily Cardinal April 2016.pdf

The train could leave NYP a lot later than 6:45am in the morning westbound and arrive a lot earlier than 9:58am eastbound.

Keep in mind Charlottsville has other trains that stop there during the day. Plus I am sure there will be more Roanoke (Bristol?) trains in the future. Id rather see Charlottsville be put in the graveyard than Charleston or Huntington. But the train really needs to go daily no matter what schedule it is on.