Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

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Backshophoss
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by Backshophoss » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:04 pm

The NY Daily News,NY Post,and Newsday have become "tabloid Newspapers".in a "game"of "one up man ship" between them
Both the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal understand the need for Gateway.
Using PANYNJ as the general contractor/project supervisor would be the best bet to get Gateway DONE!
IT would keep in state politics at bay between NJ and NY.
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

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JoeG
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by JoeG » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:18 pm

I have never heard of the Daily News being referred to as "Liberal." It was traditionally conservative. Now it has been eviscerated, with most of its reporters and editors gone. If they oppose Gateway it says nothing except that the management thinks that position will sell more papers or attract some advertisers.

The Post used to be a very liberal paper. However, it is now owned by Rupert Murdoch, who is a reactionary. The Post would be considered reactionary if its political positions were consistent enough. My impression is that its management probably thinks Gateway is a club or an S&M dungeon.

Dcell
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by Dcell » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:56 am

My point is that the editorial boards of 2 NYC newspapers now are on record as questioning the cost and value of the proposed Amtrak Gateway Tunnels project. I just wanted to keep folks here updated.

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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by Gilbert B Norman » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:26 pm

Regardless of where their editorial standing lays, the News, Newsday, and the Post are all locally circulated papers, while that of The Journal and Times is worldwide in scope.

"It figures" that those three papers (one of which is based "on the Island") are opposed to Gateway, for how often will their base of readers use any Trans-Hudson X-ing in their daily lives?

rr503
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by rr503 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:10 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:26 pm
Regardless of where their editorial standing lays, the News, Newsday, and the Post are all locally circulated papers, while that of The Journal and Times is worldwide in scope.

"It figures" that those three papers (one of which is based "on the Island") are opposed to Gateway, for how often will their base of readers use any Trans-Hudson X-ing in their daily lives?
This isn’t totally correct. The Post and News both have large regional readership bases, and seem generally sensitive to notions of public good however tabloid-y they may be.

The fact of the matter is that Gateway has the potential to be a great project, but without serious operations/cost reforms, stands a pretty * value proposition. Spending north of 12 bil for a new pair of tunnels which will only provide trans-Hudson redundancy, and then having to drop another, what, 20 billion to actually leverage the capacity benefits of said tunnels is a tough pill for even the NY region to swallow. There are some pretty simple ways to tinker with operational and managerial policy to make this cheaper/more impactful, but in a city (and country) so averse to rectifying managerial inefficiency, I have little faith that anything but more “give us money” talk will happen.
Backshophoss wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:04 pm
Using PANYNJ as the general contractor/project supervisor would be the best bet to get Gateway DONE!
IT would keep in state politics at bay between NJ and NY.
The PANYNJ has repeatedly shown itself to be nothing more than a high cost political tool for NY/NJ politicos (LGA Airtrain, Calatrava, Bridgegate). I wouldn’t put any faith in them.

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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by Jeff Smith » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:53 pm

Thomas, you have caused delay and confusion: nypost.com
Hudson Yards in tussle over planned train bed deck

The delay in building a platform over the western rail yard isn’t the only hold-up at Hudson Yards.

The 28-acre complex’s eastern half opened in March. But, as we reported last week, Stephen Ross’ Related Companies and Oxford Partners can’t start work on a deck over the exposed western train yard until their plans are approved by the Long Island Rail Road — which the developers are still waiting on a year after they submitted them.

Now, it turns out that other structural issues stand in the way as well.

Related, the LIRR and Amtrak are in what a source called a “stalemate” over where to relocate LIRR venting units that must be moved for Amtrak to build the final leg of a “box tunnel” to connect Penn Station with Gateway, the proposed new tunnel under the Hudson River between New York and New Jersey.

The box tunnel will run beneath the western yard’s southern edge. Although the deck can be built ahead of the box tunnel, which is waiting on funds, everything’s so interlocked that some officials fear unpredictable delays if engineering issues aren’t resolved.
...
Next stop, Willoughby
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EuroStar
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by EuroStar » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:31 am

Jeff Smith wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:53 pm
Related, the LIRR and Amtrak are in what a source called a “stalemate” over where to relocate LIRR venting units that must be moved for Amtrak to build the final leg of a “box tunnel” to connect Penn Station with Gateway, the proposed new tunnel under the Hudson River between New York and New Jersey.

The box tunnel will run beneath the western yard’s southern edge. Although the deck can be built ahead of the box tunnel, which is waiting on funds, everything’s so interlocked that some officials fear unpredictable delays if engineering issues aren’t resolved.
...
Interesting, but not surprising at all.
What will happen: Eventually Amtrak and LIRR will relent, and sign off and the deck will be build. Years later after some funding becomes available it will be discovered that "no, the tunnels and the vents cannot be built to the then applicable safety and engineering standards the way it was thought" and the cost of a 300ft tunnel will end up being $3B+.
What should happen: NY state, NJ state and/or the Port Authority should advance enough funds to have the damn thing build before the deck over it. NY and NJ claim to be ready to cover half of the cost of the tunnel. The time is now to prove that by advancing enough to get this done, especially when it comes to NY given that NY (and NYC) will be the one gaining the eventual tax revenues from the development on top.

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JamesRR
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by JamesRR » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:43 am

I imagine building the western portion of the "box tunnel" (between 11/12 Aves) will require the tearing up of a number of the southern WSY tracks? Be fairly disruptive (like the eastern portion was).

Scalziand
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by Scalziand » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:47 pm

Going west from Penn station, by the time the tunnel crosses 11th ave, its south of the yard tracks.

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JamesRR
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by JamesRR » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:14 pm

You're right - just saw construction photo. It's a trucking parking lot it will need to traverse.
Though the new Hudson Yards development will sit on top of it.

EuroStar
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by EuroStar » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:25 am

The governors of NY and NJ have selected their appointees to the "commission" that will oversee the project.
Representing New York will be New York State Department of Transportation Commissioner Marie Therese Dominguez, Thruway Authority Project Director Jamey Barbas and former Secretary to the Governor Steven Cohen.

Murphy will nominate Janine Bauer and Balpreet Grewal Virk, who upon confirmation from the New Jersey Senate will collectively serve as New Jersey's representatives, along with Jerry Zaro, the current chairman of the Gateway Program Development Corp.
It is unclear to me why the first two NJ appointees are qualified to serve on this ...

Ridgefielder
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by Ridgefielder » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:35 pm

Surprised nobody has posted this yet. Big announcement out of Albany... of course, no funding details yet.
Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced on Monday a plan that will bring eight new tracks to New York Penn Station -- increasing capacity by 40 percent.

The governor unveiled the proposal for creating the Empire Station Complex -- a 21st century transit hub on Manhattan's West Side -- as his 30th proposal of his 2020 State of the State.

The plan will take place by essentially commandeering the block between 30th and 31st streets and between 7th and 8th avenues -- changing Penn Station from 21 tracks to 29 tracks.
Full story here (among other places) https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/c ... n/2255408/

The involvement of the Empire State Development Corp is an interesting twist.
The Wikipedia wrote:The [ESDC] is empowered to issue bonds and notes, grant loans and tax exemptions, acquire private property, exercise eminent domain, create subsidiaries, and exempt projects from/override local laws, ordinances, codes, charters or regulations (e.g., zoning). As with all New York state public-benefit corporations, it can issue bonds without a voter referendum, bypassing the NY's state constitution limits.

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STrRedWolf
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by STrRedWolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:38 pm

Ridgefielder wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:35 pm
Surprised nobody has posted this yet. Big announcement out of Albany... of course, no funding details yet.
Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced on Monday a plan that will bring eight new tracks to New York Penn Station -- increasing capacity by 40 percent.

The governor unveiled the proposal for creating the Empire Station Complex -- a 21st century transit hub on Manhattan's West Side -- as his 30th proposal of his 2020 State of the State.

The plan will take place by essentially commandeering the block between 30th and 31st streets and between 7th and 8th avenues -- changing Penn Station from 21 tracks to 29 tracks.
Full story here (among other places) https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/c ... n/2255408/
So take over the block immediately south-by-southwest and put all the tracks there... possibly moving NJ Transit there and freeing up room?
"The last and final stop is BALTIMORE PENN STATION." I can has MARC V?

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JamesRR
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by JamesRR » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:15 am

Ridgefielder wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:35 pm
Surprised nobody has posted this yet. Big announcement out of Albany... of course, no funding details yet.
Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced on Monday a plan that will bring eight new tracks to New York Penn Station -- increasing capacity by 40 percent.

The governor unveiled the proposal for creating the Empire Station Complex -- a 21st century transit hub on Manhattan's West Side -- as his 30th proposal of his 2020 State of the State.

The plan will take place by essentially commandeering the block between 30th and 31st streets and between 7th and 8th avenues -- changing Penn Station from 21 tracks to 29 tracks.
Full story here (among other places) https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/c ... n/2255408/

The involvement of the Empire State Development Corp is an interesting twist.
The Wikipedia wrote:The [ESDC] is empowered to issue bonds and notes, grant loans and tax exemptions, acquire private property, exercise eminent domain, create subsidiaries, and exempt projects from/override local laws, ordinances, codes, charters or regulations (e.g., zoning). As with all New York state public-benefit corporations, it can issue bonds without a voter referendum, bypassing the NY's state constitution limits.
This is essentially the Gateway "Penn South" component - interesting that NYS is pushing to do this. The rest of the plan seems like a renovation of the existing Penn complex and connecting everything (including the Farley Hall). The MSG theatre/entrance ideas was floated by an architect some years ago, I believe - interesting it's being considered now.

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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Post by rvlch » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:56 am

Time machine to early in this thread:
This link to a 2011 or earlier drawing of initial Moynihan phases, which was posted here in 2013 (perhaps earlier in other threads) is still available.
It was redrawn for clarity and attached here.

The grand scale of the plans here certainly suggest it intends to demo and fully redevelop block 780 (30/31 st btwn 7&8 av), as does the fact that the earlier suggested 7 tracks in Penn South have increased to 8. The current details will be interesting as they surface!

Also of interest will be what provisions are made to support a possible deep trans-Manhattan tunnel as has been suggested in NE corridor future HSR proposals.

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