Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

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rcthompson04
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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by rcthompson04 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:25 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:31 pm
MBTA if they fund electrification will be at least one generation behind ACS 64
MBTA has discussed leasing ACS-64s from Amtrak. Seeing SEPTA is a year to 18 months away from needing all of its ACS-64s, sending 4-5 to MBTA might not be a bad way to make a few bucks.
Last edited by rcthompson04 on Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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STrRedWolf
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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by STrRedWolf » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:30 pm

ApproachMedium wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:04 pm
The HHPs specifically were not able to be subleased which is why the AEM-7s were in marc service and not HHP-8s.
To be clear, Amtrak HHP-8's, not MARC's HHP-8's.
"The last and final stop is BALTIMORE PENN STATION." I can has MARC V?

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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by mtuandrew » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:16 pm

ApproachMedium wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:04 pm
The HHPs specifically were not able to be subleased which is why the AEM-7s were in marc service and not HHP-8s.
Well, that right there is why PMCC is upset - they see a future in which they could sell or lease operational units to MARC. As for Amtrak, if they won’t run these units due reliability issues, and can’t sublet them to MARC (the only feasible user), it only makes sense to park them and steal parts for the HSTs.

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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by ApproachMedium » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:53 pm

rcthompson04 wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:25 pm
DutchRailnut wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:31 pm
MBTA if they fund electrification will be at least one generation behind ACS 64
MBTA has discussed leasing ACS-64s from Amtrak. Seeing SEPTA is a year to 18 months away from needing all of its ACS-64s, sending 4-5 to MBTA might not be a bad way to make a few bucks.
Amtrak has no spare ACS-64s available to lease out. Its been discussed to re activate HHP-8s to augment the fleet for now, but theres a training issue and theres a parts issue.

As far as MBTA electrifcation goes, stuff that runs over amtrak can start fairly soon. The money from Volkswagen dieselgate is available right now and MUST be used for zero or emissions offsetting transportation technology. So first thing it will go towards is wiring up all the station sidings and expansion of substations.
No good deed goes unpunished.

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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by gokeefe » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:10 pm

The very existence of this issue could be an indicator that interest has been shown in the units.
gokeefe

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SRich
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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by SRich » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:58 pm

ApproachMedium wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:53 pm
rcthompson04 wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:25 pm
DutchRailnut wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:31 pm
MBTA if they fund electrification will be at least one generation behind ACS 64
MBTA has discussed leasing ACS-64s from Amtrak. Seeing SEPTA is a year to 18 months away from needing all of its ACS-64s, sending 4-5 to MBTA might not be a bad way to make a few bucks.
Amtrak has no spare ACS-64s available to lease out. Its been discussed to re activate HHP-8s to augment the fleet for now, but theres a training issue and theres a parts issue.

As far as MBTA electrifcation goes, stuff that runs over amtrak can start fairly soon. The money from Volkswagen dieselgate is available right now and MUST be used for zero or emissions offsetting transportation technology. So first thing it will go towards is wiring up all the station sidings and expansion of substations.
Would it not be easy to have a few new ACS-64 built for Amtrak?
Greatings from the Netherlands

east point
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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by east point » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:29 pm

SRich wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Would it not be easy to have a few new ACS-64 built for Amtrak?
It may be the Siemens factory is completely booked up for sometime in the future? Did Siemens announce a factory expansion some time in the past to meet order demand ?

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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by Gilbert B Norman » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:48 pm

Almost five years have passed since 601 demised, and four since 625 (Frankford, Chester; numbers correct?).

Has Legal still got them "tied up", or has a determination been made they are beyond repair.

Enquiring mind is curious.

Regarding allegations that Amtrak has "cannibalized" leased HHP8's, they could well have figured "hey, we're done with 'em, and they're just going to be scrapped by the lessor anyway. Who cares?"

Well the lessor apparently does, and they caught Amtrak in the cookie jar. :P :P

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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by ApproachMedium » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:45 am

Seeking the purchase of a new order of ACS-64 is a process. And then just to lease them out to another railroad? Thats not going to be approved by the board, by all means. The two ACS-64s are wrapped. One is in a scrap line, the other shoved back in wilmington. They both will at some point meet their demise. They are just gutted shells.

Amtrak will do whatever it can with whatever it has laying around, so if they used HHP stuff for high speed sets to keep them going thats going to be their priority.
No good deed goes unpunished.

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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by Gilbert B Norman » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:22 am

Thanks for the update, Mr. Approach.

Apparently, both ACS 64 units have already been cannibalized. So much for the IG report that Amtrak "over ordered".

Interesting to learn about interchangeability of parts between the HHP-8 and the Acela Power units. Almost makes the latter sound like that "GG-one half" that was at Willmington well into the Amtrak era.

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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by gokeefe » Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:30 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:48 pm
Regarding allegations that Amtrak has "cannibalized" leased HHP8's, they could well have figured "hey, we're done with 'em, and they're just going to be scrapped by the lessor anyway. Who cares?"

Well the lessor apparently does, and they caught Amtrak in the cookie jar. :P :P
I'm wondering if this was a "sure no problem" that suddenly turned into a "uh we have someone interested in these units" which was followed up by we have to do an "inspection" and now there's an "issue".
gokeefe

rcthompson04
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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by rcthompson04 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:23 pm

gokeefe wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:30 pm
I'm wondering if this was a "sure no problem" that suddenly turned into a "uh we have someone interested in these units" which was followed up by we have to do an "inspection" and now there's an "issue".
I think there are two plausible explanations:

(1) What you said... PMCC didn't care until someone expressed interest in HHP-8s, or
(2) PMCC realized they are going to take a massive haircut when these things are returned at the end of term regardless of the condition so lets sue Amtrak now for failing to maintain.

I lean towards the latter. Suing Amtrak for failing to maintain an asset that was publicly taken out of service several years ago (almost always an event of default under an equipment lease) seems like a risky proposition unless you are bound to take a massive haircut anyway. This strikes me as the workings of a bean counter in the finance/treasury department at PMCC's parent as I noted PMCC exited the business of doing new deals almost 2 decades ago. PMCC is looking at a $90 million write off when these units are returned and they are worthless. Even if you get Amtrak to eat half of the residual position at the end of term is going to make someone look like a hero at PMCC's parents finance/treasury department.

While this will be entertaining to watch, I don't want this to end up being litigated too much as it could easily create bad case law for leasing companies.

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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by ApproachMedium » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:19 am

Just so everyone completely understands, its not like PMCC suddenly popped in and said oh lets look. Apparently whoever else owns the other engines or maybe PMCC was already there a few years ago when they were all in Bear DE. They threw a fit about it, they brought a few to wilmington, they fired them up and blew out all the power modules. Amtrak spent 2 million refurbishing those HHPs to be functional to satisfy the lessor agreement.
No good deed goes unpunished.

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Matt Johnson
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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by Matt Johnson » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:33 am

What the heck, why not, it's only taxpayer money!

rcthompson04
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Re: Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

Post by rcthompson04 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:40 pm

ApproachMedium wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:19 am
Just so everyone completely understands, its not like PMCC suddenly popped in and said oh lets look. Apparently whoever else owns the other engines or maybe PMCC was already there a few years ago when they were all in Bear DE. They threw a fit about it, they brought a few to wilmington, they fired them up and blew out all the power modules. Amtrak spent 2 million refurbishing those HHPs to be functional to satisfy the lessor agreement.
I am not sure what drove PMCC to sue now though. As you noted, these problems have existed for years.

This big "what" had me thinking about the likely return of the Acela sets in a few years. PMCC might be looking at a 9 figure write-off when its Acela sets are returned. There is even less of a market for the Acelas.

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