Portageville Bridge Replacement, Future Tier Traffic

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blockline4180
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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by blockline4180 »

K4Pacific wrote: 2011s gonna rock.
Yes, but the BIG question is will it rock for the Eastern leg of the Tier and the railroads going into and out of NJ and the PANYNJ!
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northjerseybuff
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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by northjerseybuff »

yea...will the east end rock????
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century430
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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by century430 »

Time will tell. Guess we have to be patient. I do recall someone saying back in the summer months of sand trains coming out of NJ and possibly heading up the Tier, too. Anyone remember that? What work has NYSW completed on their part of the Tier?

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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by JoeCollege »

If much of the traffic is frac/gas based, can it rock much beyond 2011 or 2012? One the drilling is complete, the need for sand disappears, and once the pipelines are installed there goes any related traffic for that. It doesn't appear to be sustainable for long- but I'd love to be wrong, and am used to being so as well.

I guess it's a get those pics while the gettin's good situation.

Matt Langworthy
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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by Matt Langworthy »

JoeCollege wrote:If much of the traffic is frac/gas based, can it rock much beyond 2011 or 2012? One the drilling is complete, the need for sand disappears, and once the pipelines are installed there goes any related traffic for that. It doesn't appear to be sustainable for long- but I'd love to be wrong, and am used to being so as well.

I guess it's a get those pics while the gettin's good situation.
Yes, the pipeline traffic will dry up once the piping is completed... but the need for sand will continue as new wells are drilled and older wells drill deeper. Thus I think the sand traffic will continue to cross the Portageville Bridge for years.
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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by SecaucusJunction »

I'd say at lease a decade, probably more for sand traffic. They're not just going to drill a few wells and be done with it. They will have to be continually drilling if they are going to get the material they want.

I know that people worry about the environment... but I can't understand why they would be so opposed to this when it could mean many new jobs and a much better economy for everyone in the area.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by NellieBly »

Let me amplify my previous post a bit. Conrail began a major overhaul of the Southern Tier between Binghamton and Buffalo in the mid-1990s, mainly to accommodate CP Rail on trackage rights (they had just renegotiated the trackage rights agreement with CP). That was put "on hold" in 1996 pending resolution of the CSX purchase of Conrail (which of course later became the Conrail split), and NS ended up with the former Erie. Now NS is finishing the rehab work Conrail started. Why? Well, that's the question originally asked about the Portageville Bridge.

In 2005 or thereabouts, NS announced an agreement with Guilford for "haulage rights" from Mechanicville to Ayer, MA (outside Boston). They also worked out a haulage agreement with CP to Montreal. In 2006 I was in Binghamton for an NYSW trip and found LOTS of NS trains (with NS power running through) climbing the hill to Belden Tunnel. Then CP gave up its rights (inherited from D&H) to run into Enola Yard via Sunbury). NS saw another opportunity, and sold the northern end of the Buffalo Line (from Keating north), arranging rights from Sunbury to Binghamton through Scranton on CP. This has worked out well for them, as noted in other posts. Then in 2008 they did the "Pan Am Southern" deal, which also as noted in earlier posts, will result in at least one pair of intermodal/autorack trains and one pair of manifest trains running through to PAS. I reviewed the PAS transaction when I was with the Surface Transportation Board.

Then either in 2008 or 2009, NS concluded an agreement to give a number of short lines rights on the Southern Tier.

And of course CP is still running trains into Oak Island. All of this should make the Southern Tier west of Bingo a very busy railroad over the next few years -- and that's before we even talk about gas pipe and fracking sand. This is very good to see. And not to give anything away, but the Portageville Bridge replacement MAY be funded under TIGER 2. Who knows? There may yet be hope for the Erie east of Bingo, too. The Port Authority in NY announced today they're going to spend $1 billion to raise the height of the Bayonne Bridge for post-Panamax vessels.
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poppyl
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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by poppyl »

I'm gathering from several comments that the NYSDOT/Federal funds are not locked in yet. And a firm date for the project start can't be established until the funds are committed.

Poppyl

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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by SecaucusJunction »

Does anyone else notice, on the NS presentation, another difference on the "current" and "future" routes from PANYNJ on page 21 and 23? The D&H routing through Scranton for service to Upstate NY and Montreal area is mysteriously gone while the rest of the line north of Binghamton remains.

Montreal was also targeted as a key area of rail growth by PANYNJ's expressrail program.

I'm just sayin'......
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

K4Pacific
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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by K4Pacific »

Returned from a Natural Gas Impact Meeting this morning at the Elmira Country Club. Expect rail traffic to double with regards to frac sand, cement sand, pipe, derrick wood, and other supplies very soon. Only 800 wells drilled so far in PA and Talisman and others say this will be exponential. Then comes New York.
Proficient on the Southern Tier Line, The former PRR Elmira Branch, A little LV, A lot of EL, And of course, the Corning Secondary. Someone always knows more than me. Remember the Binghamton yardmaster that routinely said in a high voice, "No! No! No! That's not what I told you to do!"?

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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by scottychaos »

SecaucusJunction wrote:I'd say at lease a decade, probably more for sand traffic. They're not just going to drill a few wells and be done with it. They will have to be continually drilling if they are going to get the material they want.

I know that people worry about the environment... but I can't understand why they would be so opposed to this when it could mean many new jobs and a much better economy for everyone in the area.
There is a lot more to the Frac Sand debate than just "more jobs and a much better economy"
a LOT of people are against it..for very good reasons..
just one story that hit the news today:

http://www.wnep.com/wnep-susq-drilling- ... 5280.story

Maybe fracking doesnt contaminate drinking wells..maybe it does..
no one can prove it either way yet..
IMO, if someone is injecting chemicals into the ground a few miles from your house, I dont see whats to stop it from getting into your well..
seems pretty logical to me..

Im a staunch conservative, who generally thinks jobs should win out over petty and pointless "environmentalist" claims,
but im against hydrofracking! just because the risks are too unknown..
and I look at *who* is saying its safe..the people doing the drilling! ;)
whats the saying? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on his not understanding it."
im still very skeptical if anyone says its 100% harmless..

If I lived above one of these areas, I would seriously oppose it..
too much risk of damage..and too much still unknown..
I would not be surprised if it ends up being banned in NY state.
yeah, "good jobs and a better economy" are good things..
but not if you get cracks in your house foundation or cant use your homes water supply..

Scot
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lvrr325
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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by lvrr325 »

It's like everything else in this day and age. Because three or four people's wells got contaminated somehow, we have to stop this forever, nevermind that we don't ban cars, planes or trains because they sometimes crash and spill things. But there are already wells going on in PA, where there isn't in NY.

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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by conrailsharedassets »

SecaucusJunction wrote:Does anyone else notice, on the NS presentation, another difference on the "current" and "future" routes from PANYNJ on page 21 and 23? The D&H routing through Scranton for service to Upstate NY and Montreal area is mysteriously gone while the rest of the line north of Binghamton remains.

Montreal was also targeted as a key area of rail growth by PANYNJ's expressrail program.

I'm just sayin'......
Although this is a very interesting point you make, I HIGHLY DOUBT Norfolk Southern would throw away the D&H routing between CP Kase (Sunbury) and Binghamton via Scranton. It just doesn't make any sense. So the NS trains already running the line are just gonna stop running the D&H routing and switch to an alternate routing? What route? The Buffalo Line is no longer a through route because of its severe grades, lack of clearances, etc. While the D&H although it has some grades is not nearly as severe, cleared for everything and a straight shot (easily the shortest and fastest route aside from CSX's routing) from the Southeast to Upstate, New York, New England and Canada. NS has many improvements planned for the route and plans on running more trains in the future. I'm not sure why the line was omitted on there PANYNJ expressrail program, but I'm sure it wasn't a hint that NS isn't committed to the line. Most of the traffic running on the line now, short of maybe 12/13T (which could technically run the Buffalo Line, but cant) have to or logically would run the line. I don't believe for a second that Norfolk Southern would drop its trackage rights agreement with CP on the D&H south of Binghamton. In fact I would look for many great things to come for all of the D&H from Montreal to Kase. Just my 2 pennies.

Jim

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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by scottychaos »

lvrr325 wrote:It's like everything else in this day and age. Because three or four people's wells got contaminated somehow, we have to stop this forever, nevermind that we don't ban cars, planes or trains because they sometimes crash and spill things. But there are already wells going on in PA, where there isn't in NY.
not at ALL a relevant analogy..
but moving on..

Scot
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Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement: Why?

Post by SecaucusJunction »

conrailsharedassets wrote:
Although this is a very interesting point you make, I HIGHLY DOUBT Norfolk Southern would throw away the D&H routing between CP Kase (Sunbury) and Binghamton via Scranton. It just doesn't make any sense. So the NS trains already running the line are just gonna stop running the D&H routing and switch to an alternate routing? What route? The Buffalo Line is no longer a through route because of its severe grades, lack of clearances, etc. While the D&H although it has some grades is not nearly as severe, cleared for everything and a straight shot (easily the shortest and fastest route aside from CSX's routing) from the Southeast to Upstate, New York, New England and Canada. NS has many improvements planned for the route and plans on running more trains in the future. I'm not sure why the line was omitted on there PANYNJ expressrail program, but I'm sure it wasn't a hint that NS isn't committed to the line. Most of the traffic running on the line now, short of maybe 12/13T (which could technically run the Buffalo Line, but cant) have to or logically would run the line. I don't believe for a second that Norfolk Southern would drop its trackage rights agreement with CP on the D&H south of Binghamton. In fact I would look for many great things to come for all of the D&H from Montreal to Kase. Just my 2 pennies.

Jim


No, I would never think that NS would drop the D&H routing for trains. It will always be very important for north/south traffic and provide a connection between PanAm and Crescent Corridors. The map was specifically talking about traffic originating at PANYNJ. It is the only current route that is not also on the future route map...

I also noticed that the top of the Buffalo Line isn't even on the map anymore according to NS. I guess we can see how NS views that line...
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

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