Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

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SST
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Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by SST » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:19 pm

As always when transitioning from the I90 to 219S I always look over the guardrail to check the gardenville line to see if there is any movement. Those piggyback cars haven't moved for a very long time. Today, all gone. I don't know the exact date of removal. I wonder if they are being put back to use or scraped.

I'll post a picture later.

MarkT
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Location: West Seneca, NY

Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by MarkT » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:23 pm

Within the last week. I was on the 400 crossing over the line and there was a single engine hooked to the cars, not yet pulling them out. So ALL the cars are gone? Because there was a lot

SST
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by SST » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:45 pm

As far as I can tell all of them. Although I didn't drive to either end of the line to verify. Do you know whose engine was moving them?

lvrr325
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by lvrr325 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:38 am

I always wondered what the deal was with those spine cars - waiting for the lease to expire? There didn't seem to be any obvious reason they couldn't be in service, unless they could only carry 40-foot (or 45-foot) trailers or containers and that somehow made them too much hassle to have in a pool.

Didn't this line go to NS?

ctclark1
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by ctclark1 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:45 am

Yes, NS has the Buffalo Line. That section has been marked as out of service for years though, they exclusively used the Ebenezer Secondary from CP Draw to the main section.

Besides that, NS has leased the Buffalo line/Ebenezer Sec to the B&P for a number of years now as well, they don't even list it in their track charts anymore as far as I know.

EDIT: I thought it was the Ebenezer Secondary, but one of the charts I looked at called it an Industrail... corrected...
Last edited by ctclark1 on Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lvrr325
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by lvrr325 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:11 pm

If I were to guess, B&P intends to use it, there was a bit posted a while ago about them looking to avoid the congestion coming around from the other side over the drawbridge.

The line changes alignments, from PRR to LV to cross Abbott Rd., then to former NYC just west of where the former B&O crosses over. From there it's intact crossing NS and CSX curving north into the yards there.

The right set of tracks can be taken back over the mains into the B&P/former B&O yard via a South Buffalo RR connector, or they can run into other South Buffalo yard tracks. May need to get some rights to work through CSX(?) at Seneca yard if they don't have the ability already.

ctclark1
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by ctclark1 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:20 pm

Unless they were looking to start using the Seneca Yard to interchange with CSX, there's almost no way that this would benefit them getting to the Buffalo Creek yard.
  • If they crossed from the 4 Stub to the 2 Main at CP-5 they'd end up having to go into CP-Draw and then back down into BCY.
  • If they ran into Seneca Yard but still used BCY they'd have to cut across one of the outer runners, across another connection ("The Shenandoah") into a secondary yard, go all the way across the "Jughandle" (the long bridge over every other line between Tifft and Ridge) and end up in the Buffalo Southern yard there, back down the connection from that yard to the B&O Third Main, then head up into BCY.
  • Or they could build a new connection from the jughandle to the Third Main at the bridge south of Tifft St.
  • The only other very remote possibility I see to get to BCY would be to build a connection from the Buffalo Line to the B&O Third Main where the lines cross south of Martin Rd and west of Abbott Rd, cutting the corner right behind a residential neighborhood there.
(The names I'm pulling are from the 2000 CSX Consolidated Terminal handbook, in case anyone found them unfamiliar)

lvrr325
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by lvrr325 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:24 am

From the old map I looked at, they pull down off the NYC and can back into former South Buffalo yard tracks. May have to pull into Seneca to do it. I just followed the tracks out with Google satellite photos.
Last edited by lvrr325 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

ctclark1
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by ctclark1 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:03 pm

For reference, Page 2-4 (pdf page 19) has the Seneca Yard and surrounding "sub" yards.

Yes, If BPRR were to start using one of the old South Buffalo yards, yes they'd still have to foul into either the main yard and back down into the old "H" yard, or make their way all the way up "17" across "The Shenandoah" and then back into the "PS" Yard.

My point is, though, that anything involving the Seneca Yard and vicinity would only work if they were to increase their interchanging with CSX and (probably) drastically reduce their interchanging with NS, which could be awkward considering they're leasing said Buffalo Line from NS. I would guess this is why NS stopped using that section of the Buffalo Line to begin with - it comes out in a really inconvenient spot for anyone who doesn't already own the yard and main lines down there, which is why it worked for Conrail. Continuing to access the Buff Crk Yard while avoiding CP Draw would involve one of the other options I listed above, most likely.

DECA
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by DECA » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:36 pm

Wasn't the track cut down by Willet Rd and the bridge near Electric Ave. out of service ?

ctclark1
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by ctclark1 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:58 pm

Recent aerial photography of the area shows the rails appear to be intact, if not a tad bit overgrown around Willett, although with the exception of this one spot that almost looks like there may be a tie across the rails, so perhaps you're right - they may have blocked it there to put the Electric Ave bridge out of service? Either way, where the line comes out at CP-5 under current conditions helps neither NS or B&P with getting to any existing yard they use.

This still wouldn't preclude the idea of tying the Buffalo Line to the Third Main just a bit further north, but that's speculation on my part as to options the B&P would have to bypass CP Draw.

lvrr325
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by lvrr325 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:23 am

I knew I read about them wanting to use this section here on this board previously.
pumpers wrote:In the back of the June Railpace (under the B&P section), it says B&P is worried about the increasing problems at CP-Draw and that it might have to shut for repairs. As a result they are looking at a "Martin Rd. connection" between the Orchard Park sub of the B&P and a PRR Buffalo line near MP3 in Lackawanna. I looked at a map and am not sure what they are talking about, especially what they mean by the PRR line MP3 in Lacakawanna. Or do they mean when the B&P crosses over the cutoff line from Blasdell running North East - I'm not sure of its name, both the LV and NYC(?) had nearly parallel lines - I think now the actual tracks for the most part on are on the LV Row except near the west end. This crossing of the B&P and this line I can't name isn't right next to Martin Rd, however, and I think I've read the line I can't name might not be in service. Do they mean a connection would be built at the crossing ??
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Martin Road is the first road crossing north of the Gardenville Line on the B&O alignment. Appears to be room to build a connector of some sort there, although it will call for dropping down from the B&O to whichever alignment of LV, PRR, NYC is used to connect into the existing track.

ctclark1
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by ctclark1 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:51 am

Honestly never saw that post, but just looking at the alignments it made sense. They'd probably be able to cut a fairly tight corner right behind the residential area there without too much disturbance, although Google Earth isn't showing me property lines for that area so I'm not sure how close to the existing ROWs they come.
Depending on where they cut in the height difference would only be about 10 feet from one line to the other according to GE.

(Also FWIW based on the old topo maps of the area, the Buffalo Line is still using the PRR alignment which was the "middle" alignment between LV and NYC - the LV would've been the northern alignment which can be seen as unused on the existing bridge over Abbott Road and under the B&O line.)

Farmer Joe
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by Farmer Joe » Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:56 am

I often wondered if NS could ever build a connection off the Nickel Plate to connect with that line. Not sure if there is room for it. It would get them around CP Draw. Just railfan dreaming here, I guess.....

ctclark1
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by ctclark1 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:08 pm

There was a connection from the PRR (middle ROW) to NKP line that went south, visible here. The northern-most alignment is the LV line, the southern-most split is the NYC Gardenville line, of those two the northern one is what is now used as the connection to the Buffalo Line before it jumps to the original PRR alignment just west of the B&O bridge.

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