New plan for Buffalo Central Terminal redevelopment

[Matt Langworthy]

While other parts of Buffalo have been revitalized (most notably the waterfront), the area around BCT has not.

counterpoint: Waterfront was a craphole until they spent money on it.

You're comparing apples and oranges. BCT sits in a blighted residential neighborhood with a bad reputation for crime, but the waterfront was mostly abandoned factories and warehouses. Were you upset when the former Erie RR/EL freight house was razed earlier this year to make room for more waterfront development?

As we all know, Matt, neighborhoods can NEVER change, and your friends are ALWAYS right. Please tell me about this MAJORITY you have spoken to and polled for their opinion?

Property values around BCT are depressed. Most of the residential property is rental and the population is falling, too. Middle class Buffalo residents have voted with their feet by moving to other neighborhoods.

I am not standing on the proverbial soap box because I hate BCT. It would be nice to see the building redeveloped, but the cost would be staggering (no matter who funds it) and the risk of the building remaining underutilized due to its surroundings is too high to justify the effort.

[Otto Vondrak]

When a local tells me he doesn't want to leave his car parked on the street all day in that neightborhood - at a venue that has a parking garage attached to it - that really says a lot. When another vendor tells me that when they considered doing the BCT show in a tent on the property, he wouldn't do it even if they had guards overnight armed with M16s... that also tells me pretty much all I need to know.

I had a completely different experience than your friend. I attended the BCT train show, as did thousands of others, nothing happened to my car, and I bought a lot of loot from the vendors. Same experience as I've had in the past. Does that mean anything?

-otto-

[Otto Vondrak]

And truth be told, none of us posting in this thread are truly qualified to advise billionaire investors on where they should spend their money. With that in mind, do have you have any theories as to why nobody has successfully redeveloped BCT since it was sold to Fedele back in 1979?

If I had to guess,it's because the economics of 2015 are quite different from 1979. There is more interest in historic preservation today. Saving old buildings and rebuilding them for new uses is now an investment opportunity. I imagine that's why some investor is considering BCT today. CRTC has demonstrated there is interest in the building, they've made some repairs and done some stabilization, and they have attracted thousands to their annual events. If someone else wants to spend their money to fix up the place, I won't stop them. Why will you?

-otto-

[Otto Vondrak]

It would be nice to see the building redeveloped, but the cost would be staggering (no matter who funds it) and the risk of the building remaining underutilized due to its surroundings is too high to justify the effort.

So you are against the restoration of BCT because someone would have to spend money on it?

-otto-

[Matt Langworthy]

It would be nice to see the building redeveloped, but the cost would be staggering (no matter who funds it) and the risk of the building remaining underutilized due to its surroundings is too high to justify the effort.

So you are against the restoration of BCT because someone would have to spend money on it?

The second half of my sentence explains why the money would be wasted, but I highlighted it just to make sure you can see it.

[BR&P]

You would be more accurate to say your sentence explains why the money COULD be wasted. While I agree with you the project is not a wise investment, one of the wonderful things about capitalism is that it often rewards risk with profit. If we're talking private funds and not taxpayer dollars, it would be great to see somebody with deep pockets take a try at it. I would love to be proved wrong.

[Matt Langworthy]

I figured that my numerous comments about the neighborhood being blighted and crime ridden would have been a sufficient explanation as to why the BCT project is a poor idea. Who would want to live or shop in the middle of a bad area? If one looks at the new/recent construction in Rochester, it isn't being done in the 19th Ward or the 14621 neighborhood. It's going on at Midtown, East End, Cascade Drive, etc. -away from the crime ridden areas. It's hard to convince middle (or upper) class families who have moved out of dangerous neighborhoods to return.

I certainly understand the profit motive for the developers. I wonder if they truly understand the problems I have outlined. No doubt they have the skill to make money in the Toronto area... but did they do their homework with BCT?

While I'm full in agreement about being hoping to be proved wrong, I agree with your assessment that BCT will more likely will be demolished.

[Noel Weaver]

I figured that my numerous comments about the neighborhood being blighted and crime ridden would have been a sufficient explanation as to why the BCT project is a poor idea. Who would want to live or shop in the middle of a bad area? If one looks at the new/recent construction in Rochester, it isn't being done in the 19th Ward or the 14621 neighborhood. It's going on at Midtown, East End, Cascade Drive, etc. -away from the crime ridden areas. It's hard to convince middle (or upper) class families who have moved out of dangerous neighborhoods to return.

I certainly understand the profit motive for the developers. I wonder if they truly understand the problems I have outlined. No doubt they have the skill to make money in the Toronto area... but did they do their homework with BCT?

While I'm full in agreement about being hoping to be proved wrong, I agree with your assessment that BCT will more likely will be demolished.

I agree, I would like to see it saved as long as they use their own money and not puvlic money ie tax dollars.
Noel Weaver

[The RR Authority]

You would be more accurate to say your sentence explains why the money COULD be wasted. While I agree with you the project is not a wise investment, one of the wonderful things about capitalism is that it often rewards risk with profit. If we're talking private funds and not taxpayer dollars, it would be great to see somebody with deep pockets take a try at it. I would love to be proved wrong.

Most developers today do not do much without a taxpayer handout.

[BR&P]

Most developers today do not do much without a taxpayer handout.

Sad to say, but that is exactly right.

[lvrr325]

I had a completely different experience than your friend. I attended the BCT train show, as did thousands of others, nothing happened to my car, and I bought a lot of loot from the vendors. Same experience as I've had in the past. Does that mean anything?

-otto-

Not really, since we're not talking about the same event, just the same neighborhood. And the tent thing never happened after the $80 a table fiasco that led to the BCT hiatus.

I "cruised" the area via Google street view and could easily understand his point of view.

Personally, as far as the BCT show goes, I can do a show half an hour down the road with my summer market items and come out just as far ahead - without the added expense of an overnight stay up there. I would presume the vendor pool is mostly the same guys who do all the other shows in the Buffalo market, so I'll see them all half a dozen times just a few weeks later. I presume they hold this show so early due to a continued lack of heat in the building. Seems like this year's show was also opposite Clayton. Which is no crowd conflict but certainly is a dealer conflict.

So ultimately I'm not particularly worried what they do with the structure. If it ends up being torn down, that's a shame, but I won't cry over it.

[terminalfanatic]

Ok so enough about how colorful the neighborhood is. Can we please get back on topic?

I'm sure Harry Stinson (developer) is well aware of the uphill challenges that he has to face. He knows plenty of information on the building and its surrounding area or else he wouldn't have come forward with his intention. And a developer with such past success in other areas is more than qualified to handle it & I'm sure he has plenty of financial backers that would stand to profit a great deal if the building becomes truly available to the public and private sector.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/ ... n-20151205" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Noel Weaver]

Ok so enough about how colorful the neighborhood is. Can we please get back on topic?

I'm sure Harry Stinson (developer) is well aware of the uphill challenges that he has to face. He knows plenty of information on the building and its surrounding area or else he wouldn't have come forward with his intention. And a developer with such past success in other areas is more than qualified to handle it & I'm sure he has plenty of financial backers that would stand to profit a great deal if the building becomes truly available to the public and private sector.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/ ... n-20151205" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just because I don't happen to agree with some on here, I believe my remarks are right on topic. In my view any money spent on this "WHITE ELEPHANT" would be a total waste and I don't think too many would disagree with me.
Noel Weaver

[Flat-Wheeler]

Ok so enough about how colorful the neighborhood is. Can we please get back on topic?

I'm sure Harry Stinson (developer) is well aware of the uphill challenges that he has to face. He knows plenty of information on the building and its surrounding area or else he wouldn't have come forward with his intention. And a developer with such past success in other areas is more than qualified to handle it & I'm sure he has plenty of financial backers that would stand to profit a great deal if the building becomes truly available to the public and private sector.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/ ... n-20151205" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can truly say "GOOD LUCK!!!" to anybody with brains enough to make it happen. I would personally want to see it through, but i cannot envision it in that declined neighborhood. The lighter folks in that neighborhood were connected to people who helped cheat me (a UB Engineering Grad) out of over $6k in stolen checks, for their own party drug use. And the police and banks did nothing (as if it was a stolen car). That neighborhood was swarming with crackheads after I left the Iron Triangle for Kenmore, before taking a real job down South. I cannot imagine what the area must be like over 20 yrs later. I think of Syria first.

[umtrr-author]

The Buffalo News piece does seem to be pretty balanced. Stinson doesn't shy away from discussing the perception of the neighborhood around BCT (and in this case, perception largely is reality), and points to other projects with which he's been successful. On the other hand, it's also noted that Stinson's one Western New York project to date, in Niagara Falls which is also hardly a garden spot, did not end as expected and in fact the property was sold off to someone else.

It would be nice to see a revival of BCT and its environs, but it's likely as not in my mind that instead we will see a large wrecking ball. It wouldn't be the first time a landmark was lost forever, and it wouldn't be the last either.