CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operations

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CR7876
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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by CR7876 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:13 am

2nd hand info from a Facebook group states " Tony would like to start service by the end of Spring".

There is still a lot of work on both Conrail's and NJSL's side to do to make that happen.

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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by MedicSutton » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:03 am

Sort of kind of related. Was hiking up the tracks with the dog 3 weeks ago. Noticed a large washout just north of a culvert about 3/4 miles north of Quaker Bridge(atsion). Idk if anyone has been keeping track of the old CNJ ROW but figured I'd throw that out there.
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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by bmwr12 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:55 pm

It appears the siding just past The Lakehurst crossing has been rebuilt.

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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by liftedjeep » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:02 pm

MedicSutton wrote:Sort of kind of related. Was hiking up the tracks with the dog 3 weeks ago. Noticed a large washout just north of a culvert about 3/4 miles north of Quaker Bridge(atsion). Idk if anyone has been keeping track of the old CNJ ROW but figured I'd throw that out there.
Sorta "keeping track" of the old CNJ RoW....

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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by R&DB » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:07 am

Two questions:
1 - Now that the rehab of the Clayotn line is complete, does anyone know if the FRA track class has been changed?

2 - Of the three bridges that were rebuilt, two are Conrail's and one is Clayton's. Was the state grant money for Conrail and Clayton or did Clayton pay for all three?

Beginning tomorrow Conrail is replacing the 3 track Union Ave, crossing in Lakehurst. Conrail has replaced some other crossings on the Secondary in recent years. Perhaps this means may mean to rebuild from Red Bank to Lakehurst and upgrade it's FRA class above 1. Class 3 would be awesome. (40 mph freight, 60 mph Passenger) This would also help NJ Transit with their proposed MOM line. I hope this means they may have begun and Southern Secondary/NJSL interchange operations may begin in the not too distant future. If NJT does get the MOM line, Lakehurst Station (location to be determined but I guess Union Ave.) will be the southern terminus with the trains stored on the Naval Station siding. Lakehurst will become a great rail fan spot with trains from NJSL, Conrail and NJT!
If Clayton rebuilds the loop at the sand mine, NJSL won't have to do a run-around at either end.
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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by David » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:52 am

Would be great if the old CIBA area be used for rail storage of future NJT equipment.
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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by CR7876 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:09 am

R&DB wrote:Two questions:
1 - Now that the rehab of the Clayotn line is complete, does anyone know if the FRA track class has been changed?
Is it complete? NJSL just asked for another $1.7M from NJDOT for Phase 2,whatever that is. I wasn't around in 1988 when the Ashland operation for Clayton ended, so I'm not sure if it was excepted track or Class 1. Visually it looks like Class 2.
R&DB wrote: 2 - Of the three bridges that were rebuilt, two are Conrail's and one is Clayton's. Was the state grant money for Conrail and Clayton or did Clayton pay for all three?
Conrail got a NJDOT grant in 2012,or 2013 for three bridges: North Branch Toms River MP62.21, Toms River MP64.41, Manapaqua Branch MP65.85. Those repairs were completed by 2014. The bridge over the Union Branch at MP66.11 was not part of a specific grant, but likely used money from the first grant. Please keep in mind that the grant money was to NJSL not Clayton. It is not known, but unlikely that Clayton put up the matching funds for the grants.
R&DB wrote:Beginning tomorrow Conrail is replacing the 3 track Union Ave, crossing in Lakehurst. Conrail has replaced some other crossings on the Secondary in recent years. Perhaps this means may mean to rebuild from Red Bank to Lakehurst and upgrade it's FRA class above 1. Class 3 would be awesome. (40 mph freight, 60 mph Passenger) This would also help NJ Transit with their proposed MOM line. I hope this means they may have begun and Southern Secondary/NJSL interchange operations may begin in the not too distant future. If NJT does get the MOM line, Lakehurst Station (location to be determined but I guess Union Ave.) will be the southern terminus with the trains stored on the Naval Station siding. Lakehurst will become a great rail fan spot with trains from NJSL, Conrail and NJT!
If Clayton rebuilds the loop at the sand mine, NJSL won't have to do a run-around at either end.
Conrail is not replacing the crossing, NJDOT is.

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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by R&DB » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:39 pm

[quote David » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:52 am

Would be great if the old CIBA area be used for rail storage of future NJT equipment.][/quote]
Naval Station is much closer (< 1 mi.) and has plenty of room. Also has the advantage of great security. Either location would require track work.
Harry

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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by David » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:16 am

How about the New Jersey Railroad Museum at the old CIBA area? A lot of potential for excursions; north to Red Bank and south to Woodmansie.
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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by R&DB » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:23 am

David » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:16 am
That's a much better idea. Good central NJ location with great highway access for visitors. It would give Toms River and Ocean County a nice tourist destination. But it would take TONS of money. The old CIBA spur ends just north of Route 37, so there is no track in the facility. Everything would have to be built, probably to FRA Class 2. You'll need some way of turning engines / trains. To run excursions to Woodmansie you would have to rebuild the south leg of the Lakehurst wye (including the bridge) and pay Conrail to rehab the TRIT. Pay Clayton / NJSL to put in a run-around in Woodmansie. (you can't reverse 13 mile to Lakehurst to turn) Pay Conrail for trackage rights. Pay trackage rights to Clayton/NJSL. (Tony would love that) To go to Red Bank, you have the same issues with Conrail and NJDOT/NJT. (poor track, rights) Turning in Red Bank could be done in the NJT yard by stopping in the yard and run-around and backing into the station. I would run 2 trainsets, one from CIBA and one from Red Bank. Get station rights from NJT in Red Bank or build one there on west (south) track. You could run from Red Bank to the museum and back making it a rail destination giving access from any NJT and even Amtrak at NYP. (think Grand Canyon Railway until Amtrak dropped Williams as a stop) The issues with a Red Bank interchange with NJT is high-level platforms may not work with vintage equipment and NJT may hate the whole idea, but they would benefit from fares on the Coast Line to make up for some lost parking spaces. Another problem is would NJT let you store a train in their MoW yard. I don't know of any rail museum that has train to museum door access. Just change trains in Red Bank from NJT. You may need sidings in Lakehurst and Farmingdale. I would make sure the one in Lakewood is usable.
I have no idea what it would cost to set up an operating company or perhaps pay NJSL crew to run your vintage excursion equipment. They're gonna need a rail-fan billionaire to make a HUGE grant to the museum!
On another thought, what if the museum was a combined effort of the URHS, Whippany RR Museum, Tuckahoe RR Museum, Black River, NJ Transportation Museum(Pine Creek RR) and the Bel-Del showcasing all of NJ's fallen flags? Perhaps it could get 501c3 status? The excursion trains would be a separate entity based at CIBA as a tourist line. If NJSL was to co-operate in the operating company, they could benefit from the shops at CIBA for fuel and minor servicing for their Woodmansie operations. Fuel for diesel engines could be interchanged with Conrail at Lakehurst and pumped from the tank cars directly into the engines.
David thanks for making my brain work today! :-D
Harry

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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by JimBoylan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:18 pm

Heard from a local friend that 2 weeks of grade crossing work and road closure started 3/19/18 in Lakehurst.

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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by David » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:22 pm

R&DB wrote:
David » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:16 am
That's a much better idea. Good central NJ location with great highway access for visitors. It would give Toms River and Ocean County a nice tourist destination. But it would take TONS of money. The old CIBA spur ends just north of Route 37, so there is no track in the facility. Everything would have to be built, probably to FRA Class 2. You'll need some way of turning engines / trains. To run excursions to Woodmansie you would have to rebuild the south leg of the Lakehurst wye (including the bridge) and pay Conrail to rehab the TRIT. Pay Clayton / NJSL to put in a run-around in Woodmansie. (you can't reverse 13 mile to Lakehurst to turn) Pay Conrail for trackage rights. Pay trackage rights to Clayton/NJSL. (Tony would love that) To go to Red Bank, you have the same issues with Conrail and NJDOT/NJT. (poor track, rights) Turning in Red Bank could be done in the NJT yard by stopping in the yard and run-around and backing into the station. I would run 2 trainsets, one from CIBA and one from Red Bank. Get station rights from NJT in Red Bank or build one there on west (south) track. You could run from Red Bank to the museum and back making it a rail destination giving access from any NJT and even Amtrak at NYP. (think Grand Canyon Railway until Amtrak dropped Williams as a stop) The issues with a Red Bank interchange with NJT is high-level platforms may not work with vintage equipment and NJT may hate the whole idea, but they would benefit from fares on the Coast Line to make up for some lost parking spaces. Another problem is would NJT let you store a train in their MoW yard. I don't know of any rail museum that has train to museum door access. Just change trains in Red Bank from NJT. You may need sidings in Lakehurst and Farmingdale. I would make sure the one in Lakewood is usable.
I have no idea what it would cost to set up an operating company or perhaps pay NJSL crew to run your vintage excursion equipment. They're gonna need a rail-fan billionaire to make a HUGE grant to the museum!
On another thought, what if the museum was a combined effort of the URHS, Whippany RR Museum, Tuckahoe RR Museum, Black River, NJ Transportation Museum(Pine Creek RR) and the Bel-Del showcasing all of NJ's fallen flags? Perhaps it could get 501c3 status? The excursion trains would be a separate entity based at CIBA as a tourist line. If NJSL was to co-operate in the operating company, they could benefit from the shops at CIBA for fuel and minor servicing for their Woodmansie operations. Fuel for diesel engines could be interchanged with Conrail at Lakehurst and pumped from the tank cars directly into the engines.
David thanks for making my brain work today! :-D
Great explanation R&DB! Thank you. No matter where a sight is planned, we can all agree that a "ton" of money will be needed to build a museum. The huge crossing located on route 37 is in place ready to be used someday. The CIBA area can be utilized for many different projects wether a museum or NJT for a repair facility and storage. Plenty of land there for much trackage. Your fallen flag idea is something that would be a outstanding if all of them came together. Let's see if others have some more ideas about this.
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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by kilroy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:46 pm

I just don't see any advantage to any of the groups but the URHS.

All the others would need to direct resources I'm sure they desperately need for their current operation to build a museum far away from their current location. You can't get people to visit one and then the other. Except for a couple of hard core railfans, who is going to want to drive from CIBA up to Whippany in the same day?

It might be a great location for a rail museum and I'm sure all the other groups would support it in word but how many of them are going to give cash (other than a token contribution) and/or equipment to the operation? They're worried about keeping their own operations in the black.

The amount of cash needed would require a couple of Mega Millions jackpots so we are going to need that billionaire railfan.
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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by R&DB » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:54 pm

Thanks David. After some more thought I think the CIBA location should have the following:
Station adjacent or attached to museum building
Diner in museum
Interactive displays
Map displays - historic and current
Gift shop
Maintinence shop for indoor displays
Display tracks for static displays

The RR company should have:
Locomotive shop
Car shop
Servicing tracks with storage - fuel, water, sand, lube, etc.
Passing sidings
Loop track around entire complex
MoW storage track(s)
Some Mow equipment

I wonder if the sand from Clayton can be used for locomotives?
Excursion fares from Red Bank should include museum admission
Excursion to Woodmansie and back should be separate from museum admission
I wonder if Pine Creek would give up their CNJ caboose? They can't use it and it could be restored for operation for Red Bank run.
How much NJ fallen flags equipment is available?
Harry

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Re: CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operatio

Post by R&DB » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:32 pm

kilroy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:46 pm
The URHS should operate the museum and loan equipment the excursion trains. I am suggesting the other organizations be partners through loans (or donations) of equipment (perhaps on a rotating basis) for operation or display and by providing any materials they can whether its rolling stock or indoor/outdoor display items. Many (if not most) of their members are volunteers and the museum would readily accept their participation. The museum would not be looking for cash from the others, but donations would be welcome.
The other organizations would only share in the cost of moving loaned operating equipment to/from CIBA. If they could loan one piece each on an annual basis, perhaps as the museum's equipment roster grows the loans could be reciprocal.
Harry

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