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  • Conway Scenic Railroad (CSRX) discussion thread

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

 #1478519  by p42thedowneaster
 
That's also why the locomotives face the direction that they do...so the engineer can see the N. Conway platform. On busy days like RFWKND and TTE they would usually have a trusted volunteer on board as an extra set of eyes. The evening train sometimes has a "fireman" to keep a lookout for wildlife and other obstructions like storm damage etc...
 #1478521  by b&m 1566
 
flyingfox10 wrote:Also in order for rehabilitation to happen, both the railroad and the state(s) that own the tracks would want regular service to make a return on their investment. Certainly would not make any sense to spend $15 million just to use the tracks 8 days a year. It would take you 40 years at 8 days per year to pay that off, and that is not counting fuel fpr the train or train crew. You guys do not seem to understand the kind of money runnimg a train involves. Just for simple math it costs around $100,000 per month to run the valley train on the full schedule. That covers payroll for the 5 man crew, and fuel for the engine. I dont really onow how much fuel the generator uses so that is not figured in. Now add in your other expenses, track crew, shop crew, station help, reservations, etc and now you are looking at another $50,000 per month. Add the summer notch train expense into the equation and you are looking at another $70,000 a month. That puts the monthly debt at $220,000.

If you add steam to the mix, it costs $2,000/day each day it runs.

All the above figures are simple estimates. $4/gallon of fuel, average employee wage of $9/hour, etc. The wages may vary as I have heard some really great things about the new owner.

Right now they are being very smart, and trying to improve the existing operation with things like the stop at Attitash, which will be a great way to bring in some extra riders.

Don't forget taxes and insurance cost too. I don't think I even want to know how much they spend on insurance, I'd probably keel over in the fetal position and start sucking my thumb.
 #1478525  by Jonathan
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:That's also why the locomotives face the direction that they do...so the engineer can see the N. Conway platform. On busy days like RFWKND and TTE they would usually have a trusted volunteer on board as an extra set of eyes. The evening train sometimes has a "fireman" to keep a lookout for wildlife and other obstructions like storm damage etc...
I remember seeing some pictures of someone who had gone to Conway this past june. They had a second person in the cab of 573. In the case of Railfans, I remember that they had a second person in 1751 and 4266.
 #1478530  by Mikejf
 
Jonathan wrote:But you can’t see both sides of a crossing if you go over it.
Actually you can. You just loose sight of the opposite side sooner. Where as with the 66, you can see nothing..
 #1478574  by NHV 669
 
Jonathan wrote:A couple of seconds after the train goes across the first crossing of Routes 16/302 enroute to Bartlett, the train traverses a switch. This is what they call Mountain Junction. The Kearsage Branch is that other stretch of track that is joined. Conway has rights to as far as a bridge that goes over a waterway (I forget which one) The track actually goes all the way to Maine.
You're referring to the Mountain Division; that isn't a branch line. The bridge goes over the Saco River. The track actually goes all the way to Portland, as it was once a daily-used bridge route.
 #1478581  by NHV 669
 
John Smythe wrote: to mention that the track is in a sad state of disrepair between Fabians to Whitefield resulting in it being Class 1 track, maximum speed 10 MPH.
This track is used for little more than in/out equipment moves, and trains at rare times such as Railfan's Weekend. Why would either party feel a need to maintain it to any higher speed?
John Smythe wrote:Tourists coming into the Conway area create miles of crawl & stall traffic tie ups on weekends. Same goes for summer vacationers. The vehicle flow comes up route 302 & 16. I have been advised by someone very much in the know that there are several business located along the Mtn. Division line that would ship products by rail if service was available. A Propane dealer in Conway, over in Maine a sand & gravel pit operator, a lumber yard, a company that raises chickens that seeks to have grain & feed delivered by rail, there was another company that wanted to build a wood pellet plant, that my friend would result in creating numerous jobs, jobs, jobs in rural Maine where decent paying jobs are hard to come by.
I ask again, how the CSRX would solve such congestion? They are not a commuter line, and many of these travelers are seeking points further east/west than where the RR can operate.

Wanting to ship by rail, and actually signing a shipper contract are different things. I have followed the Mt. Division thread since I joined here, and every mention of business has remained nothing more than a rumor/hearsay, especially the wood-pellet pipe dream. Neither state is foolish enough to spend all those millions for a handful of infrequent shippers, and a business that merely exists in Imaginationland.
John Smythe wrote:I said absolutely nor implied anything about Amtrak coming from Portland up into the White Mountains. It costs about $1 Million per mile to rehab a railroad ROW in order to see service again. There are about 9-10 miles of track that need to be rehabbed from State Line to the Redstone area, where the State relocated a road & the rail line in N. Conway some 20 years ago. To be on the safe side 12-15 Million Dollars would cover everything. Imagine what that kind of money could do to revitalize a defunct rail line just waiting for a second chance to be useful again.
You're correct, I misread there. However, you've again confused a slow moving tourist line, with a Commuter Train; something the CSRX is not. They have neither the crews, logistics, or equipment to pull such a thing off. If it costs that much just for the short NH portion, why would Maine be foolish enough to spend that kind of money for a seasonal tourist train? I feel like we're beating a dead horse yet again.
There was even talk about operating a commuter train between Sebago Lake station to Portland to help ease congestion on Rt 114. There are dozens of very good reasons to restore the Mtn. Division Line. Federal Dollars, State Transportation Bonds & Funds, Grants, FRA Monies, and on and on. The problem is there always seems to be those among us that are unwilling or unable to think outside the box.
Who is going to operate that train? Who in their right mind will vote for a multi-million dollar project that helps only half the towns on the line? There are plenty of good ideas, none of which are a realistically sound financial plan. Government subsidies could be better spent on existing routes, that already have paying customers buying tickets, or existing Freight lines that could use track upgrades to serve ACTUAL customers. It isn't necessarily about "thinking outside the box", it requires sound logic, common sense, and a reality-based financial picture that benefits both the operator, and the taxpayer/shippers.
Rehabilitation of The MEC Mtn. Division Line from Portland to N. Conway has the potential to create revenue, jobs, ease traffic congestion, etc.
It's hard to create revenue with a few infrequent freight shipments that require regularly maintained track, or relieve congestion with a slow moving stub-ended line that won't exceed the speed of said traffic without multiple upgrades. Which leads to the extra millions just to bring the track to at least class II, to make it worthy for either an operator or shipper to use it.
 #1478585  by John Smythe
 
This has become so frustrating. Why don't we let the State of Maine solve the issues over on their side of the line. I never mentioned any type of suggestion that CSRX haul freight or passengers in Maine, let Maine deal with that. I'm just reporting about the interest in having rail service between Portland to Fryeburg, which by the way has it's own run around track located there. Better yet why don't just both states just rip up all the tracks from Portland to Whitefield & make a hiking trail out of it then everyone will have nothing to complain about & think how much money it will save for ever & ever.


I want to say I'm sorry for the hasty writings I just posted. By no means would I want to see the rails between Portland & Whitefield torn up. I live on the South Shore area of Boston, Mass in a town through which one of the Old Colony rail lines passes. When efforts to restore the Plymouth, Greenbush & Middleboro branches first took shape back in the 1980's - the early 1990's there was major opposition based on speculation that because people have been so used to using their automobiles for some 35+ years to commute to Boston & back that they would prefer to keep using their cars. Service abruptly ended with a mysterious fire on the all wood trestle spanning the Neponsitt River destroyed it in 1959, the same year The SE Expressway opened. Like It's been said... " Build it & they will come to use it. " Boy... isn't that the truth. People were a little reluctant at first back in the mid 1990's but as word began to spread the floodgates opened up, who wants to be stuck in all that stop & go traffic every day? Some 15,000 commuters now use the rails on the South Shore to commute. The Nay Sayers ended up eating crow. Build the line & they shall come to use it, I like that saying. Actually my 98 year old mother whom I live with & care for likes that saying. If she likes it that well then we should all take a shine to it. For 98 years old she's as sharp as a tack & loves talking about the good ole days when she used to take the train to Nantasket Beach back in the days when every train was steam powered.


The New Owner of Conway Scenic Railroad David Swirk in my opinion is a very intelligent & capable individual who loves people, railroading & most of all is steam power friendly. I'm absolutely convinced he will make the right choices for the railroad & advance it into areas not thought possible. Mr. Swirk has only been at it for a few months, he'll make the right calls & the right choices, let's get behind David & help however we can, anything that needs doing so he can acquire MEC #501 as that second steam locomotive he desires. Thank you!
Last edited by John Smythe on Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 #1478636  by NHV 669
 
Quite a difference in population density between the Boston area and the White Mountains region; we're talking apples to carburetors here. The state has enough trouble raising money to keep the roads in shape halfway around the year up here, a defunct line without a real business plan is back-burner material. Extending trips to the state line is certainly a feasible Idea, as are more frequent trips to Whitefield, perhaps with the aid of a few state dollars to help with track upkeep. Indeed, Swirk is certainly a bright man, and acquiring 501 is certainly within reach. But it would be silly to bet the farm on him trying to tackle a drastic project like a revival of the MD.

Speculation can go anywhere, but I'm not holding my breath on a "commuter type" railroad up here, when Concord-south can't even get funding dollars for a simple study of feasibility on extending an already existent commuter RR to come north an extra hour or so. That "metropolis" is certainly on the low end of the necessary density needed, given most of those folks are full time residents. A few seasonal bursts of tourists in the summer isn't going to float such rehab ideas, and I don't see Swirk trying to lose money on any kind of a frequent "winter train" idea other than a one-off scenario. It's just too cost prohibitive, especially insurance-wise. Your pipe dream ideas sound nice, they just don't have any basis in economic reality, given what we have to work with up here. As long as the states pay to keep the rails from getting completely overgrown, and occasional inspections, I don't see them having any urge to rip the tracks up either.
 #1478681  by Jonathan
 
John Smythe wrote: I want to say I'm sorry for the hasty writings I just posted.


Ok. One thing. You don't have to apologise for bringing up a conversation starter. It was a great idea and who knows maybe one day it'll happen. We're just toying with ideas that might happen.


Now, I have read an interview with Mr. Swirk and he says he wants to work with Cranmore Mountain. Possibly meaning ski trains? I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.
Last edited by MEC407 on Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total. Reason: excessive quoting
 #1478684  by Jonathan
 
NHV 669 wrote:[
John Smythe wrote:Tourists coming into the Conway area create miles of crawl & stall traffic tie ups on weekends. Same goes for summer vacationers. The vehicle flow comes up route 302 & 16. I have been advised by someone very much in the know that there are several business located along the Mtn. Division line that would ship products by rail if service was available. A Propane dealer in Conway, over in Maine a sand & gravel pit operator, a lumber yard, a company that raises chickens that seeks to have grain & feed delivered by rail, there was another company that wanted to build a wood pellet plant, that my friend would result in creating numerous jobs, jobs, jobs in rural Maine where decent paying jobs are hard to come by.
"I ask again, how the CSRX would solve such congestion? They are not a commuter line, and many of these travelers are seeking points further east/west than where the RR can operate. "
Ok. Now I have to give my thoughts on this.

John Smythe has a good and a valid point. To add on to that point, isn't that what they are starting to do with the stop at Attitash? They are becoming a commuter line.
 #1478715  by CSRR573
 
Jonathan wrote:


John Smythe has a good and a valid point. To add on to that point, isn't that what they are starting to do with the stop at Attitash? They are becoming a commuter line.

Thats a stretch saying that they are becoming a commuter line. Thatd be like calling the Valley RR a commuter line because they have the stop that connects with the ferry to bring you up the gillet castle
 #1478721  by Jonathan
 
CSRR573 wrote:
Jonathan wrote:


John Smythe has a good and a valid point. To add on to that point, isn't that what they are starting to do with the stop at Attitash? They are becoming a commuter line.

Thats a stretch saying that they are becoming a commuter line. Thatd be like calling the Valley RR a commuter line because they have the stop that connects with the ferry to bring you up the gillet castle
Good point. I haven't thought about it that way. If CSRX were to add more stops along the line, would it be fair to call it a commuter line?
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