Housatonic Railroad Thread (Maybrook, Berkshire, Pittsfield)

[BostonUrbEx]

If this was any railroad other than the ever-unpopular Housatonic that railfans love to bash, nobody would be saying this was a big deal. You're all grasping at straws here. "Yeah, it happened here and had no hazmat, but it *could* happen elsewhere and it *could* have hazmat!" Okay, and I could "what if" about a million scenarios, but that doesn't make this any more of a big deal.

[Pj]

FWIW, I am dealing with one on my subdivision now.

There is a difference between cars coming off the tracks at 15mph and falling over and ones that are catastrophic.

General Council = Company lawyer and not an operations person.

I run trains that approach 15,000ft over grades and curves with all sorts of stuff in between and behind my units. I have a pretty good respect for what happens.

I'd be more concered with a tank leaking anhydrous aminoa then some empty box cars falling over.

Neither is good, but you do have to put in perspective.

[J.D. Lang]

If this was any railroad other than the ever-unpopular Housatonic that railfans love to bash, nobody would be saying this was a big deal. You're all grasping at straws here. "Yeah, it happened here and had no hazmat, but it *could* happen elsewhere and it *could* have hazmat!" Okay, and I could "what if" about a million scenarios, but that doesn't make this any more of a big deal.

Have you seen any of their track or seen one of their trains pass by lately and watch the harmonic rock in the cars even at 15-20mph. Over the last few years they have had derailments that have dumped lumber cars into the Housatonic river. There are serious issues with the right of way in many places. I've always been hopeful and supportive of a stable Berkshire corridor for freight into western Ct. and as I posted a few pages back many companies have benefited over the this service. I've also been sympathetic to the struggles that a small company has to face in order to make a go of it in the NE. I do think that it is appalling that a lawyer for the railroad would make a statement like that without senior management stepping in to clarify. The Housatonic RR. runs through some very beautiful Housatonic watershed that is treasured by many people in this area. On tank car of hazardous material with a release into the river would be a disaster to everyone including the RR. It may have been a relatively minor incident this time as far as derailments goes but calling it no big deal and with the condition of the ROW does not help the railroad with any credibility in the communities that it runs through. I only hope that the state of CT. doesn't keep waiting for the RR. to fold before stepping forward to do something about it. There is to much at state hear for the state to sit idly by.

John L.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

If this was any railroad other than the ever-unpopular Housatonic that railfans love to bash, nobody would be saying this was a big deal. You're all grasping at straws here. "Yeah, it happened here and had no hazmat, but it *could* happen elsewhere and it *could* have hazmat!" Okay, and I could "what if" about a million scenarios, but that doesn't make this any more of a big deal.

No, it is a quite very big deal. This railroad has the worst incident rate in New England over the last decade for derailments involving tipped-over cars. Don't make some childish foamer crack like this is a figment of 'haters' imagination. Look it up your own self.


It is not a big deal for a railroad to end up on the ground. PAR does that all the time on its crap branchlines. Other shortlines do that all the time. It happens inside of yards all the time on everything right up to the Class I's. It doesn't make the news unless it blocks a grade crossing. And it isn't inherently unsafe to have a high rate of derailments if they are just groundings upright on the railbed. Landing upright means the last line of defense held exactly like it was designed to.

It is something different entirely to have a pattern of incidents where cars are jumping the railbed entirely and landing horizontal. In ditches, off the ROW property lines, and occasionally clipping an adjacent building. Requiring dispatch of lots of large heavy equipment from outside contractors into inaccessible areas for uprighting the cars, whereas a simple grounding can usually be solved by the railroad in-house with a re-railer crew. It is worse when such a frequent pattern of tip-overs is sustained by a railroad that runs as infrequently as Housy does, with trains as short and light as Housy runs, on a singular and branchless mainline that shouldn't be dividing their systemwide maintenance attention. They make the news as frequently as they do in a very sparsely-populated area with not a large quantity of eyes on them because this pattern is so unusual and creates such disturbances when heavy equipment has to get scrambled into constrained access points at notice to town emergency departments.


No other carrier in the region has this persistent a problem with that severity of derailment except Housy. That is fact, not a figment of 'haters' imagination.

[Gilbert B Norman]

I believe that they carry isopropyl alcohol to Pharmco in Brookfield in tank cars so yes scary indeed when the general council guy says no big problem. Unfortunately the odds of something tragically happening keep increasing as time goes on.

John L.

Oh well, Brookfield is South of New Milford, so I guess the rubbing alcohol will stay out of the Housatonic by my hotel - for that matter out of Hatch Pond.

[Pj]

Control of Harmonic Rocking on Jointed Rail:
Under certain conditions, operation of trains between 13 MPH
and 21 MPH can cause derailments due to harmonic rocking
of cars. Where specified by individual subdivision special
instructions or general order, the following restrictions apply
when operating on jointed rail:

Freight trains, other than coal trains, ore trains, or trains
consisting entirely of empty equipment, which cannot maintain
a minimum speed of 21 MPH, must reduce speed to 13 MPH
or less until movement can again exceed 21 MPH.

Rules that we use. Seems to work. Remember that jointed rail was the rule of the day for may years. Its still on mainlines in many areas of the country as well with 49mph running...

Theres quite a bit of science in track. I've seen stuff that I would swear would derail our local, but its solid as a rock - wereas I've gone over sections of track good for 79mph that makes you think you bottomed out the fuel tank. Looks are deceiving.

I cannot speak for their track program, but all MOW activities are mandated and audited with an approved plan by the FRA. If its really that horrible, then the FRA oversight inspector to move on. If the track is FRA excepted track, then its a different story. There is more going on than a railfan or casual observer would ever know "just by looking".

As the other person said, really a non-issue as derailments are concerned

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/05/ha ... mands.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Pj]

Almost forgot...

Many railroads no longer provide initial derailment services. They contract out to RJ Corman, Hutcler and a few others and are usually on call 24/7. Its a very costly service, but its cheaper than pulling railroad men and keeping dedicated equipment in working order that is (generally) never used. We have several derricks and wrecking cranes in cold storage thoughout the system, but they almost never move.

Even at close to 10,000/hr, its still cheaper and they have it down to a science.

Case in point, we had a grain train derail, piled up something like 15 cars. I was on duty when it happened 30 miles away - and its in a remote location. By the time I tied my train down, got in the van, drove out there and job briefed on what we were going to do, Hutlcher already had three trucks with equipment pulling up on scene and they came from 120 miles away.

[Gilbert B Norman]

By the time I tied my train down, got in the van, drove out there and job briefed on what we were going to do, Hulcher already had three trucks with equipment pulling up on scene and they came from 120 miles away.

That outfit is not known as "Hulcher Vultures" for nothing.

[Jeff Smith]

Lots of viewpoints, thanks! One point I'd consider; there are a few players in the industry who could be called "aggregators" of short-lines. G&W, et al. Are there a significant number of "independents" out there? I.e. "mom and pop" type operations.

Like everything else, there's two sides to each story. As that article I linked up thread points out, there are a lot of skeptics of HRRC in general and the passenger proposal in particular. It's easy to criticize from outside, but inside, you're on a shoe-string budget (I can think of some tourist ops like that). My point being, this line was abandoned, and resurrected by HRRC. So, as a private op, they're doing what they can to make it work. That may include looking for government assistance. A lot of the skepticism is borne of their track (pun-intended) recorded, and their treatment of BSRM, and some sketchy tactics. I think personality may come into it as well.

Anyway, I think eventually much if not all of this ROW is going to come into CtDOT's hands. It has to if it's going to survive. Whether HRRC keeps its overhead rights or is compensated to liquidate them, who knows. P&W clearly has an interest here; F-Line rightly points out the WALK project on the NH Mainline may require reactivation of the OOS portions of the Maybrook down Derby way.

[BandA]

I don't understand why MA did an overpay. They should have offered liquidation value +5%, take it or leave it, and found a new freight operator. Deval talking up the value with his foamer passenger fantasy was foolish (which was really just so they could build legislative support for their eastern MA infrastructure plans). They could have waited for HRRC to fail and scooped it up, or sent in the FRA inspectors to condemn it and asked connecting lines to embargo service due to conditions. Deval was not the smartest governator.

[Gilbert B Norman]

I'll have a "room with a view" next weekend at Rocky River Inn; I booked a Deluxe room so it better have a River view and by consequence a trackside view; if it don't, I'll wonder why I signed up for $120/ni rather than $89.

"Back in my day", and I will concede the Symbol to our "old New Haven hands" around here, the NB through freight came by Woodrow at about High Noon. If I got lucky, during the Winter, I could be leaving a class in the Schoolhouse atop "The Hill", I could see it with three #5xx Alco RS-3's and some 75 cars. I honestly must wonder if HRR can attract that level of business nowadays.

As for that consignee in Brookfield noted earlier in the topic; without actually looking it up, I can think of greater HAZMAT in this world than rubbing alcohol.

If it's "odds on" that this outfit cannot operate a through freight without it spilling, what hope have they got. A passenger train? Uh never mind.

[Jeff Smith]

I think waiting for them to fail would have been bad for a couple three or more reasons.

1. Poor service could cause customers to go off line and on road. Route 7 and local roads are not great around there. Keeping trucks off the road is in the public interest.

2. The specter of continuing hazards from derailments.

3. They could be waiting a while for failure while the ROW continues to deteriorate. Unfortunately this may continue unabated in CT due to their budget woes.

4. When they finally do fail, the cost is going to be that much more, perhaps even exponentially more. Penny wise, pound foolish.

Whether or not HRRC keeps overhead rights on any of the Berkshire/Maybrook is less relevant than the ROW going to hell in a handbasket IMHO. Get P&W involved for the Maybrook before WALK starts, provide some incentive, and buy up that last 15m of the Berkshire before the tracks fall in the river.

[newpylong]

Control of Harmonic Rocking on Jointed Rail:
Under certain conditions, operation of trains between 13 MPH
and 21 MPH can cause derailments due to harmonic rocking
of cars. Where specified by individual subdivision special
instructions or general order, the following restrictions apply
when operating on jointed rail:

Freight trains, other than coal trains, ore trains, or trains
consisting entirely of empty equipment, which cannot maintain
a minimum speed of 21 MPH, must reduce speed to 13 MPH
or less until movement can again exceed 21 MPH.

Rules that we use. Seems to work. Remember that jointed rail was the rule of the day for may years. Its still on mainlines in many areas of the country as well with 49mph running...

Theres quite a bit of science in track. I've seen stuff that I would swear would derail our local, but its solid as a rock - wereas I've gone over sections of track good for 79mph that makes you think you bottomed out the fuel tank. Looks are deceiving.

I cannot speak for their track program, but all MOW activities are mandated and audited with an approved plan by the FRA. If its really that horrible, then the FRA oversight inspector to move on. If the track is FRA excepted track, then its a different story. There is more going on than a railfan or casual observer would ever know "just by looking".

As the other person said, really a non-issue as derailments are concerned

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/05/ha ... mands.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The track maintenance program may be audited but there is a lot of wiggle room and independence when it comes to section foreman and their portion of the railroad. There is also a lot of time between FRA visits for track conditions to deteriorate.

Another regional example - Pan Am is Southern has a 25-40 mph mainline. After the FRA or NS geometry car makes a visit there are 2 dozen 10 mph slow downs and even sections taken out of service. So 15K ton unit grain trains and key trains were going over that at 25-30 mph hours before it was taken out of service for a defect. Now imagine a railroad like the Housy with far less tonnage, less trackage, and that is under the radar.

[Pj]

There is no wiggle room. What kind of wiggle room do you think there is?

Any time a track car goes across you get all sorts of slow orders. That's pretty normal. As stated before, a track inspector in a high rail can only find so much.

Think what it's like taking a 26k 200+ car soda ash train across something like that. I went over track last night that was good for 70/79 the day before and has a 1/2 mile long 25 order on it.

Don't try to make it out like its doomsday.

[Ridgefielder]

There was a lot of good will toward the Housy back in the '80's/'90's when it brought the middle section of the Berkshire back from the dead. That good will has been squandered over the years. It's not just the one derailment, it's a years-long series of over-promising and under-delivering.

On the passenger front, the NY-Danbury-Pittsfield passenger service proposal has been brought up by management every couple years since the '80's; I recall this being written up in The New York Times for the first time ca. 1990.

The only concrete move they ever made was buying some bi-levels that wouldn't fit through the Norwalk tunnel.

There was a lot of buzz again when HRRC bought the whole cluster of routes radiating out of Danbury from Conrail back in the early '90s, including freight rates on the Harlem Division, with the Housy touting a freight renaissance in the area.

Instead, Harlem Division freight vanished completely, and the Maybrook rotted-- to such an extent that P&W sued the HRRC for adverse abandonment between Derby Jct. and Hawleyville. The tracks west of the yard in Danbury look in such rough shape that I question whether you could safely take a locomotive much past White Street (there are waist-high trees growing between the ties).

Couple that with things that at least seem dodgy- a tangled corporate structure (why does a railroad with <200 route miles need a holdco-operating sub structure?), rails meant for one state that show up in another, constant demands for state subsidies- and you get the level of animosity you see now.

Believe me, as someone from Western Connecticut, with a deep love of the Housatonic valley and the countryside that surrounds it, I'd like nothing better than to see these guys succeed. Danbury, in particular, needs a freight rail link that's not subject to MNRR/AMTK interference.