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  • Walkway Over the Hudson - Poughkeepsie Railroad Bridge

  • General discussion related to Rail Trails nationwide, including proposed rail trail routes. The official site of the Rails-To-Trails Conservancy can be found here: www.railstotrails.org.
General discussion related to Rail Trails nationwide, including proposed rail trail routes. The official site of the Rails-To-Trails Conservancy can be found here: www.railstotrails.org.

Moderator: railtrailbiker

 #16495  by robmcalpine
 
Wasn't a formal engineering study done in the 1980's that said the bridge could support trains again??
 #16511  by march hare
 
What burned were the wooden members supporting the track (what would be ties on ordinary track). From the photos I've seen the fire was confined to the approach spans on the Poughkeepsie side, with the worst damage being right over the Central Hudson gas plant property, between the NYC main line and the river.

During the fire, and subsequently, pieces of metal from cross bracing between the main members kept falling off, threatening to clunk people on the head. There are also some large propane storage tanks in the area, and they may have been threatened at some point also. So all of the bridge structure on the Poughkeepsie side has been removed, with the exception of the biggest longitudinal beams.

As for the suspicions of arson, who knows thirty years later. I do remember hearing quite a bit of speculation on the subject, even among PC people. The location of the fire was pretty much where you'd expect it if somebody needed to make a quick exit before it attracted attention.

Over the long term, though, it certainly would have been abandoned anyway. There isn't enough RR traffic into southern New England to justify that line anyway.

 #17581  by JBlaisdell
 
Wasn't a formal engineering study done in the 1980's that said the bridge could support trains again??

I attended a public meeting about 1986 regarding the bridge. The engineer hired to do the study said the bridge, as it stood, was at a rating equal to typical branchline load rates (E60?). Repairs to one eyebolt on a turnbuckle (those are large turnbuckles, mind you) would restore it to maximum capacity (E72? or something like that...). Of course, that was nearly 20 years ago.
Over the long term, though, it certainly would have been abandoned anyway. There isn't enough RR traffic into southern New England to justify that line anyway
In 1974 there were still 4-6 trains a day, enough to reopen the bridge. The problem was all in PennCentral. PC was required by bankruptcy court to take over the New Haven and route a certain amount of New England traffic via Maybrook to keep the ErieLackawanna afloat. Now, RRs get paid per car-mile, and PC had its own line to Buffalo and west, but was losing out on what it short-hauled to the EL. With the bridge out of the way, ALL traffic went on PC rails. But PC was a poor excuse for any kind of business. Maine potato farms went to trucks because PC was LOSING trains. Carloads of potatoes would sit on PC for a week and rot. This also hurt the Bangor and Aroostook as it was the line that initiated the loads, and the Maine Central and Boston & Maine. What few other industries there were using rail, PC drove them away. Conrail was not much better, as it had no interest in New England and was formed soley to try to make 6 bankrupt RRs solvent again.

Now, this is all moot, but let's speculate: The EL, L&HR and Reading all had an interest in the bridge. Had the NH gone to the EL to better compete with PC, we might have had the bridge survive as a vital link. Sure, PC and EL would still have gone under, but maybe they would not have been both put under Conrail.
The main span did not burn that bad but the apon bridges over the Pougkeepsie shore see :
http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/pbpage.Html
most of these smaller bridges are buckled.
the link above shows pictures during and after the fire.
There is no mention of the smaller viaduct spans buckling. The pics of the deck show the rails badly warped, and the ties moved with them, but that is only the track itself.

The archived articles do tell how the water lines did not work. PC claimed they were drained from Nov-May to prevent freezing. Maybe so, but one would think the lines would be intact still, allowing them to be charged in short notice. Indeed, there was water on the Highland side. I have also been told PC abolished the watchman on the bridge shortly before the fire. These facts coupled with it being a windy day and conditions were just right for such a "disaster."

 #17778  by cjvrr
 
Also note in the links that the local fire department responded to another fire near the tracks east of the bridge the Fire Capt. stated, "at 1:17 we had a small fire on the tracks at Washington Street that was put out quickly" and in his statement said was caused by sparks from a train or a hotbox. It also says the FD followed the line west looking for other fires. Just after 2pm smoke was spoted on the bridge.

I also walked out on the bridge within the last 8-9 years during one of the group's open houses. I personally do not think a train could ever be run on that bridge again without the replacement of great portions of the structure. Lots of rust and decay throughout the top members of the bridge. I can just imagine that it must be much worse near the waterline.

It has always been a dream of mine to see it open to rail traffic one day, but I just don't think that is going to happen. I wish the group luck in getting it open for pedestrians. It will take a lot of money to do the proper engineering / environmental, etc. studies.

Chris V the civil E.

 #17783  by roee
 
cjvrr wrote: I personally do not think a train could ever be run on that bridge again without the replacement of great portions of the structure. Lots of rust and decay throughout the top members of the bridge. I can just imagine that it must be much worse near the waterline.

It has always been a dream of mine to see it open to rail traffic one day, but I just don't think that is going to happen.
You're right, it's never going to happen. You'll never see rail traffic over that bridge again. And it has nothing to do with the structure of the bridge. There is no need for it. Where is this rail traffic going to come from? Is there a large number of shippers in the Dutchess County area that want to ship stuff via rail across the river? I would love to see freight traffic pick up in the Northeast, but even if/when it does, it's not going to require the Poughkeepsie Railroad Bridge. I could possiably see the need for a better freight connection between NYC and NJ, but if the traffic is going to make it's way up to Poughkeepsie, it's not that much more of a streach to take it to Albany. Money would be better spent double tracking all of the river line.

Eric

 #21356  by robmcalpine
 
Here's the article in its entirety "Copied and Pasted" because its only available for seven days on their website
Courtesy: http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com
Sunday, 5/23/04
===============================================

Sunday, May 23, 2004

Prove railroad bridge can be reutilized

Someday, a local citizens group proclaims, you'll be able to walk or bicycle across the Poughkeepsie Railroad Bridge, high above the Hudson River, enjoying the breathtaking views in every direction.
That's an intriguing dream. But the organization is a long way from proving its plans are feasible.

Walkway Over the Hudson, which has owned the once-abandoned structure for several years, sees it as a potential link between growing trail networks on both sides of the river. For starters, new board Chairman Fred Schaeffer talks about opening to the public a section on the Highland side, and maybe installing an elevator at the Poughkeepsie end, to lift visitors up for a look around.

This could be a first small step toward a viable pedestrian bridge. Small steps are all that's possible at this point, with three big factors unresolved:

Liability -- Walkway's insurance on the bridge lapsed in 2001. Schaeffer is optimistic a new policy will soon be in place. But until there is, liability issues could be far greater than the group could handle, should there ever be a serious mishap. Even the pared idea of opening either end to the public exposes the group to legal risk.

Money -- The cost to repair the bridge enough for pedestrian use isn't clear. The group's own estimates have varied from an unlikely $2 million to as much as $10 million. A state Department of Transportation study, released last year, estimated essential repairs would cost more like $12.6 million. That doesn't include another $15 million to improve the bridge's appearance by getting rid of rust and repainting.

No matter which figure is most accurate, the organization isn't even close to covering it. Walkway has only about $3,000 on hand. Schaeffer offers hopes of raising the rest through grants, private contributions, a ''major fund-raising drive'' -- and public money.

Unlike previous Walkway Chairman William Sepe, Schaeffer is eager to seek state and federal grants. They're hard to come by these days, when state and federal budgets have tightened way up. But Schaeffer should find one ally in Hudson River Valley Greenway head Carmella Montello. Her state planning agency has helped develop the region's fine network of walking trails. Montello has said she could help the organization find public funds, such as through the federal Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act, or ISTEA.

Safety -- Both Sepe and Schaeffer have insisted the span is in good shape. But attorney Donald Pevsner, a knowledgeable local railroad enthusiast, has long contended there's a potential risk to boats on the Hudson, as well as the active railroad lines that pass beneath the bridge, should it ever start to fall apart. If he's right, the span may have to be dismantled -- at great cost.

However remote, the potential risk can't be easily discounted, considering the collapse last year of the century-old Kinzua Viaduct, a railroad bridge in northwestern Pennsylvania, during a severe thunderstorm. The Poughkeepsie structure is 16 years older than Kinzua, and it's been unused since 1974, when Conrail abandoned it following a fire. The risk question may not be fully resolved until independent structural engineers -- ideally, with the state DOT -- have gone over the structure bolt by bolt.

Walkway Over the Hudson deserves much credit for resolving the tangled ownership issue left behind when Conrail relinquished control over the bridge. This citizens organization has earned its role in the future of the span.

But the group's new leaders need to prove the bridge has the future they envision -- by finding major funding sources, and seeing what state inspectors say about its stability. Even opening either end to visitors would be a big accomplishment.

ON THE WEB

- Walkway Over the Hudson: www.walkway.org

- Hudson River Valley Greenway: www.hudsongreenway.state.ny.us
 #23118  by DonPevsner
 
A few comments on this topic:

(1)I personally rescued the Bridge from demolition on February 1, 1984, when I got the first of three successive 90-day options from CONRAIL to buy it for $1.00--including ROW on the west side up to the NY State Thruway overpass south of New Paltz. As I couldn't find a responsible developer in time, CONRAIL carried-through on its later threat to sell it to the "first warm body", on November 2, 1984: convicted bank swindler Gordon Schreiber Miller, of St. Davids, PA. It was my own offer that derailed CONRAIL from demolishing the Bridge at its own expense, at a cost ranging from $3MM to $18MM...the request for demolition bids had already gone out a bit earlier.

(2)This saga is featured in Carleton Mabee's excellent book on "THE
POUGHKEEPSIE RAILROAD BRIDGE", published by Purple Mountain
Press of Fleischmanns, NY. Dr. Mabee is a Pulitzer Prize-winning
historian who earlier wrote the definitive book on the Wallkill Valley
branch of the NYC (same publisher), and is retired from SUNY-New Paltz.

(3)Bill Sepe did a lot of good in the first few years. However, he
also totally-alienated both Central Hudson and the Town of Lloyd
Zoning Department. RESULT: CHG&E built its substation across
the ROW just west of the Bridge, and the Town of Lloyd (Highland)
has banned pedestrians for several years now. The final straw was
when Mr. Sepe refused to accept any Federal or State funding to
stabilize and restore the Bridge as a part of the Maybrook Corridor
Rail Trail (recommended in the formal consultants' study), as he
"preferred Federal/State funding to go towards curing disease" (!).
At that point, Mr. Sepe became counter-productive in the extreme, and
I am delighted that he is no longer on the Board of Directors nor
running the Bridge non-profit corporation as his personal fiefdom.
He was way out of his depth, to the ultimate detriment of the project
as it should now transpire.

(4)The HIGHEST AND BEST USE for the Bridge is to stabilize and
paint it, as well as re-deck it from the Eastern Viaduct all the way
to the west end of the Western Viaduct, so as to become the highlight
of the Maybrook Corridor Rail Trail. NYS Congressman Maurice D.
Hinchey (D.-Hurley) has pledged his support for this endeavor.
Let's hope this won't take too much longer.

(5)I never said that the Bridge would collapse of its own weight.
Rather, the Central Hudson de-energized power lines (4 x 115kv)
and one-ton steel (corroding) support brackets are the real risk.
Should the bracket(s) fail near the western shore, the lines could
easily fall across the CSXT River Division (NYC West Shore) track, and
probably derail a train into the adjacent Hudson River...right across
from where the City of Poughkeepsie draws its drinking water (!).
As there are plenty of HAZMAT trains on the West Shore, this
continues to be a tremendous risk.

(6)It took a small tornado to topple the Kinzua Viaduct. However, there
are no guarantees that a similar event could not happen to the
Poughkeepsie Bridge as well. After all, it is now 115 years old...and
NOT improving with age!
 #30932  by railtrailbiker
 
Here's the bad news about the 115-year-old Poughkeepsie Railroad Bridge spanning the Hudson River: It could cost roughly $10 million to $15 million to restore and open it to foot and bike traffic.
The good news: It would cost even more -- upwards of $20 million -- to demolish the historic structure, closed to rail traffic for 30 years.

But perhaps the most promising consequence of a meeting this week among state officials and a local group that owns the bridge was the news that the state is committed to helping bring the project to fruition.

Carmella Mantello, head of the Hudson River Valley Greenway, said some officials took a walk on the span Tuesday and then met and ''fleshed out'' several ideas on how to move forward.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/toda ... 04s1.shtml
 #30938  by bellstbarn
 
From the Poughkeepsie Journal July 1, 2004:
Thursday, July 1, 2004

State supports opening railroad bridge
Group needs $70,000 for study
By Anthony Farmer
Poughkeepsie Journal


Here's the bad news about the 115-year-old Poughkeepsie Railroad Bridge spanning the Hudson River: It could cost roughly $10 million to $15 million to restore and open it to foot and bike traffic.

The good news: It would cost even more -- upwards of $20 million -- to demolish the historic structure, closed to rail traffic for 30 years.

But perhaps the most promising consequence of a meeting this week among state officials and a local group that owns the bridge was the news that the state is committed to helping bring the project to fruition.

Carmella Mantello, head of the Hudson River Valley Greenway, said some officials took a walk on the span Tuesday and then met and ''fleshed out'' several ideas on how to move forward.

Moving forward

''Everyone was in complete consensus that the state agencies are on board to make this a very viable project to move forward,'' Mantello said Wednesday. ''I'm very confident that the project will happen, it's just going to take a long time.''

Tuesday's meeting included Walkway Over the Hudson, the group that owns the span, Greenway officials and representatives of the state Department of Transportation, the Department of Environmental Conservation and the state Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation. Mantello said the bridge could be a key link in connecting Greenway trails on both sides of the river.

The bridge was closed after a 1974 fire severely damaged it.

Fred Schaeffer, Walkway Over the Hudson's board chairman, said getting the state officials to visit was a big step forward.

The next step is to get a study done assessing what would be needed to upgrade the span and the related costs, Schaeffer said. The group is seeking to raise $35,000 and secure another $35,000 in the form of a grant from the state Department of State to fund the study, he said.

Mantello said the officials at the meeting will lend their support for the group's grant application.

''Once that is done, it would move very quickly because we then would have a handle on the cost involved,'' Schaeffer said of the study.

''We're firm believers that once people get out on the bridge and see the potential for it, everyone gets behind it.''

And it's that experience the group hopes to rely on in not only attracting financial support from federal, state and local officials, but from the private sector as well.

Officials said the project could be done in phases, with portions of the span being opened as they are completed. Schaeffer said he thought it could be fully open within three to five years, but he'd like to have it open by 2009, at the latest, to coincide with the 400th anniversary of Henry Hudson's voyage up the mighty river.

Steve Auerbach, a chiropractor in Highland, was excited by the prospect of the railroad bridge helping to connect trails in the area. Auerbach is a past president of the Highland Rotary, which played a key role in creating the Highland Rail Trail.

''Everybody seems to be getting behind this on both sides of the river,'' Auerbach said. ''It's going to be like the ninth wonder of the world.''

 #30942  by bellstbarn
 
I just discovered that the same topic is in the New York State Railfan forum on this site. Sorry for the duplication. Joe

 #30946  by DutchRailnut
 
If you fix it for 15 million you still have to scap it in 20 years or so but then for 35 million dollars, plus it will cost you a million or so a year to maintain it for 20 additional years.
Last edited by DutchRailnut on Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

 #31562  by njmidland
 
The same is true for the Tappen Zee Bridge. Let's scrap it now!

 #31601  by DutchRailnut
 
true , but the Tappan zee bridge is still very much needed, the Poughkeepsie bridge would be a boondoggle, with a huge pricetag, and only two handfull of users a day.
Ideologie is great but not with my taxes.
Last edited by DutchRailnut on Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #31717  by Schooltrain
 
I had the pleasure to be in the Mid-Hudson Valley a week or so back for the first time in many years. As I drove up Route 9 toward Hyde Park, I looked up at that giant structure and thought of the debate that has gone back on forth on this bulletin board concerning its fate.

If the bridge can be made pedestrian friendly and safe as part of a coordinated tourism plan involving the old New Haven road, $15 million is a drop in the bucket. In a state budget of nearly $100 billion, that amount is lost to mismanagement on any single day.

I can only imagine both the view from on the bridge and the thrill of crossing the Hudson on foot. Just walking over the old NYC bridge over the Oswego River, with no railtrail connection (but as part of a river walkway), is a thrill and attracts visitors. Clearly, with the proper marketing and cross promotion by both Dutchess and Ulster Counties, the bridge can produce a "Hudson River crossing" experience unlike any other the entire length of the river.

Without that marketing and promotion, it probably is a "boondoggle." Still, if the cost of demolition exceeds the cost of restoration, that fact, in and of itself, makes the project worthy of serious consideration. Although I do not live in the Mid-Hudson region, I'm glad to have my tax dollars used to promote tourism and preserve a historical artifact at the same time.
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