Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.

Moderator: scottychaos

Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby XC Tower » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:25 pm

Hello,
Would anyone know how many as well which trains were scheduled on a typical March day during this last month before Conrail? Also, would have there a scheduled “way-freight” from Buffalo to any locations?
Thank you for any help.

XC
XC Tower
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby TB Diamond » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:07 pm

Eastbound:

ME-2 (N&W connection)*
LV-2
AP-2 (N&W connection)*
COJ-32 (Via Suspension Bridge)

Locals:

BPL-6 (Tifft Terminal-P&L Jct. M-W-F)**
NTT-2 (Suspension Bridge-Tifft Terminal Tues-Thurs-Fri)

Westbound:

AP-1 (N&W connection)*
ME-1 (N&W connection *
JB-3
NE-1 (Via Suspension bridge)

Locals:

PLB-5 (P&L Jct.-Tifft Terminal)
TTN-1 (Tifft Terminal-Suspension Bridge)

* Power and crews swapped out at Tifft Jct.
** Authorized to travel east to Rochester Jct. under dispatcher instructions with no penalty.
You can't go home again- Thomas Wolfe
TB Diamond
 
Posts: 1691
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:40 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby XC Tower » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:07 pm

Thank you for the information!
A few more questions, if you will: Were the COJ-32 and NE-1 both trains that crossed over the Suspension Bridge at Niagara Falls from lines in Canada? If so, which railroad was the traffic interchanged with? I recall seeing a mixed freight stopped on the bridge while walking into Canada across the Rainbow Bridge in the early 1970’s. It looked like a toy above the Niagara River and Gorge! There were no locomotives or caboose to be seen for identification.
Also, was the Lehigh Valley Yard at Niagara Falls located next to that of the Penn Central? I recall one visit there driving up to see LV ALCO’s in Tuscan red being parked at one end. With the passage of time, memories are getting a bit fuzzy, but I believe the units were low-hood four-axle Centuries.
I appreciate the explanations that expand upon those fascinating memories of those years from my youth.



XC
XC Tower
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby TB Diamond » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:37 pm

You are welcome.

COJ-32 and NE-1 did not cross over Suspension Bridge. The Lehigh Valley Railroad interchanged with Canadian National at Suspension Bridge. So far as recall has it, this interchange was handled by transfer runs.

The Lehigh Valley Suspension Bridge Yard was located just north of the Penn Central Falls Branch Main Line between Hyde Park Blvd. and the Niagara Expressway. The engine tie up track was located near the east end of the yard.

Your recall of four-axle units parked at Suspension Bridge was no doubt correct depending on the year account the six-axle C628 locomotives were banned between Van Etten Jct. and Buffalo/Suspension Bridge in 1973.
You can't go home again- Thomas Wolfe
TB Diamond
 
Posts: 1691
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:40 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby XC Tower » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:51 pm

Thank you once more for the information which “connects the dots” to my early teenage railroad memories.
Another two if you will: Two of the houses where I spent growing up were right on and a block south of the NKP/N&W street running trackage in Erie, PA, so for a boy fascinated with trains along with dreams with someday becoming a railroader when “grown up” (whatever that meant or means), the parade of trains that came to me for watching was awesome! In the early 1970’s, I recall trains with Lehigh Valley power and cabooses passing regularly. The sight of foreign power of such color and variety truly was a highlight, which was much look forwarded to. Even the LV cabooses were of different colors! (I preferred the green scheme)....I recall even seeing the “snowbirds” on the head-end! These sights seemed to end, if my memory is correct by 1973 or 1974. The March 1976 Lehigh Valley train schedule for Buffalo revealed part of the answer with the power and crews of AP-1 & 2 plus ME-1 & 2 being switched at Tifft Junction with the N & W. Was there a reason for this change? Also, was Tifft Junction located near Bison Yard?
What days those were! Buffalo, NY was this exciting big city of railroads and industry that was never thought of changing, but such was the mind set of a boy during my life. I am so grateful for my dear old Dad to have taken us on those drives there of railroad discovery and memory making.
Finding answers to these brings back something of that exciting time, which I truly do appreciate.



XC
XC Tower
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby TrainDetainer » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:39 pm

was Tifft Junction located near Bison Yard?

tifftjct.png
TrainDetainer
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:37 pm

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby lvrr325 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:38 am

In fact COJ-32's symbol means C&O to Jersey, interchanging with Chessie System at Niagara Falls, who reached there via Canada Southern (NYC) rights they got with the Pere Marquette merger.

an older Flags Diamonds and Statues covers what trains went where in the final years. I don't recall now the title of the article though. The centerfold is a line chart showing all of the mainline trains.

LV kept a unit or two up there for switching, often an SW9, locals ran typically with an RS2.
lvrr325
 
Posts: 4500
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 5:42 pm
Location: New York State

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby XC Tower » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:52 am

Thank you so much! Now I am ready to take a drive to Buffalo for searching out where the Lehigh Valley trackage exactly was! The trackage along I-90 always had me wondering which way each end of it came and went. I am thinking that the “west” end of it took a turn north to eventually heading to Tifft St. Yard and the east descended down to parallel Bison Yard. Heading to Depew in search of Niagara Junction is in order also. Is a view possible by parking at the Amtrak Station there?
I am far from being an expert on anything, but with Lehigh Valley cooperation on run-through trains with the NKP/N&W that an addition of the LV wasn’t considered to the N&W’s system. Gaining a Canadian gateway plus access to the New York City area with the burden of commuter trains would seem attractive. Was this ever explored?
Once more, my gratitude for all the answers about the Lehigh Valley, a truly fascinating railroad!



XC
XC Tower
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby TrainDetainer » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:42 am

You can't see much more than CP431 and the end of the A from Depew Amtrak platform east. The Gardenville/West Shore Connection underpasses are about a half mile east of the depot and LV's Niagara Jct is another half mile east of that. There is no way to see NiaJct without permission from property owners. The driveway from Transit to it is normally gated and doesn't really exist all the way in anymore anyway. From Walden, all you can see over the CSX main is trees and maybe a little of the hole. The old NYC underpass has been filled in for a long time. From the south you'd have to cross NS at the ice rink and hike north. From what I remember most of that section of LV gets full of water quite often too. Best way to see it now is by satellite photos.
Depew old.png
TrainDetainer
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:37 pm

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby TB Diamond » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:12 pm

The Lehigh Valley Railroad interchanged with the TH&B and Niagara Jct. Rwy. as well as the C&O and CN at Niagara Falls.

Towards the end of the LVRR there was one switch job at the Suspension Bridge Yard which was on duty at 2:59 P.M. daily.

The Crosstown Pickup (TTN-2/NTT-1) most times did have a Alco RS2/3 for power. However, there was personal observation of a Alco high nose RS11 and even a C420 being utilized on this local.

TrainDetainer is quite correct in relating the LVRR r/o/w present condition. Niagara Jct. is now a tree, brush and weed infested swamp. Once the drainage system at NJ began to fail account loss of maintenance it did not take very long for the area to become partially submerged. Even ATVs had difficulty maintaining a path through the junction when they could sill access it. Back in 2007 one of the few remaining artifacts at NJ was the LP tank that supplied fuel for the switch heaters. Stopped by NJ again in 2010 and noted the concrete pole for w/b the low clearance warning device was still extant and that the foundation for the tower was still visible but little else. Just west of NJ the e/b absolute signal pole was laying along the r/o/w and the associated electrical cabinet still stood, heavily vandalized.
You can't go home again- Thomas Wolfe
TB Diamond
 
Posts: 1691
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:40 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby XC Tower » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:48 pm

My thanks once more for the fascinating information regarding the Lehigh Valley in the Buffalo. The suggestion to use satellite photos to look at Niagara Junction is excellent. I will try the same to trace the old LV rights-of-way to Tifft Junction onto the yard, as well as Niagara Falls.
Hearing that the C&O, TH&B, and Niagara Junction were all interchanged with at Niagara Falls by the LV is so awesome to find out. I wonder if that long mixed train that I saw stopped on the Suspension Bridge back in the early 1970’s could have been a C&O one waiting for a signal to proceed into the LV yard? (This makes sense as years later in the early 1990’s I finally saw my first train at the crossing atop Clifton Hill in Niagara Falls, ON in Canada: a CSX mixed freight with a B36-7 GE in an early blue and gray paint scheme! .... Not long after, I talked to a railroad employee parked nearby in a Conrail truck who identified himself as a “Penn Central” employee for me finally figure out whose tracks were by getting the whole Canada Southern story)
Which bridge did the TH&B use to cross the Niagara into order for interchanging with “the Valley”? They are a railroad who I completely forgot in regards to serving Buffalo! It seems the more I find out about the Lehigh Valley, the more questions I have. This truly is enjoyable!


XC
XC Tower
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby CPSmith » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:50 pm

Try this site as well: http://www.canadasouthern.com
peddle your shorts
CPSmith
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:15 am

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby TrainDetainer » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:47 pm

XC -

Here's a map that will get you started toward NiaF. LV branch is labeled as abandoned Williamsville Industrial. Keep in mind there are always errors (One glaring error on this map is the Belt Line being labeled as former EL - it was always NYC). http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/rail ... 1-1987.pdf

There are plenty of aerial pics that will get you the rest of the way. For the original routes to NiaF:
http://www2.erie.gov/aerial_photos/inde ... otos-1920s

For newer/more current, post realignment:
https://research.lib.buffalo.edu/aerial ... raphs/1978
TrainDetainer
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:37 pm

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby NYCRRson » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:19 pm

One part that is missing and/or unclear in the old aerial photos is the route of the LV from the City of Tonawanda north to NF.

The LV joined the NYCRR along the "little peanut" which was a branch off the NYCRR "Niagara Falls Branch" which ran East from Tonawanda along Ellicot Creek. The NYCRR part of this branch ran out (crossing Niagara Falls Blvd around about Ellicot Creek Park) towards Akron and then went south and ended in Batavia.

The LV "NF branch" joined this NYCRR route about halfway between NF Blvd and the NYCRRC Niagara Branch. At the junction the LV "ended" and ran on NYCRR Trackage rights through Tonawanda, N. Tonawanda, and into Niagara Falls.

This branch ran into the the City of Tonawanda parallel to (and south of) the Barge Canal. There was an interlocking tower where the NYCRR Little Peanut (with LV trackage rights) crossed the Erie (later the EL) line from Buffalo North to North Tonawanda to NF. This tower was about a 1/2 mile south of the old EL bridge over the canal. Back in the 1980's you could still walk in from Filmore Ave (City of Tonawanda) to the remains (foundation and some interlocking plant throw rods) of this tower. This tower was at the crossing of the NYCRR "Little Peanut" branch and the Erie "Niagara Falls" branch.

As far as I know the LV ran on NYCRR Trackage rights from along Ellicot Creek into the NYCRR Falls Branch (in the City of Tonawanda) and then crossed over the NYS Barge Canal using the large two track Bascule Bridge owned by the NYCRR. Then the LV used Trackage Rights on the NYCRR Niagara Falls Branch to reach the East end of the NYCRR yards in NF. Then the LV had a small yard/freight station/engine house North of the NYCRR NF yards.

In the late 1970's (79 ?) Amtrak purchased the old LV freight station in NF (I assume from Conrail which had all the assets from the bankrupt railroads ?) and it became the Amtrak Passenger Station for NF.

So the LV could only get to NF using NYCRR tracks. I do not know if there was an earlier track arrangement ? I know there were only two railroad bridges over the Barge Canal (or before that the Erie Canal), one was NYCRR and the other Erie (later E-L).

Cheers, Kevin
NYCRRson
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:50 am

Re: Scheduled LV Trains-Buffalo, NY in March ‘76

Postby TB Diamond » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:32 pm

One correction: ConRail assumed possession of certain Lehigh Valley Railroad assets. Those assets that did not go to ConRail went to the Lehigh Valley Railroad Estate.

When those assest in possession of the Lehigh Valley Railroad Estate were disposed of, the Estate ceased to exist.
You can't go home again- Thomas Wolfe
TB Diamond
 
Posts: 1691
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:40 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains

Next

Return to Lehigh Valley Railroad

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest