Hyperloop and other vactrains

General discussion of passenger rail proposals and systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby bostontrainguy » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:11 am

Don't know what's so unique about the Boring Company's technique, but if what you are saying is true, they should be used for Gateway and the Cross Harbor Freight Tunnel too. Faster and cheaper - what are we waiting for?

P.S.Their website claims their newest machine is10 times faster then existing machines. That's amazing.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby mtuandrew » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:50 am

bostontrainguy wrote:Don't know what's so unique about the Boring Company's technique, but if what you are saying is true, they should be used for Gateway and the Cross Harbor Freight Tunnel too. Faster and cheaper - what are we waiting for?

P.S.Their website claims their newest machine is10 times faster then existing machines. That's amazing.

That's what I've been trying to ascertain too, the company's videos aren't clear on the difference between their boring machines and a standard TBM. I think part of the difference is that these tubes are built for a small vehicle, considerably smaller in diameter per passenger/hour than a standard subway or train, so maybe they're easier to bore & excavate quickly.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby NorthWest » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:04 am

Hyperloop is just maglev in a vacuum tube... It's just taking an astronomically expensive existing technology and putting it in even more expensive tubes.

Is there any barrier to it? Just economics...
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby bostontrainguy » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:30 pm

Musk talks about the boring company and doesn't sound too confident.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/news/124 ... -will-fail
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby ConstanceR46 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:14 pm

Jeez. If he didn't treat his workers worse than dirt i'd almost feel sorry for his self-destruction.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby D40LF » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:27 am

NorthWest wrote:Hyperloop is just maglev in a vacuum tube... It's just taking an astronomically expensive existing technology and putting it in even more expensive tubes.

Is there any barrier to it? Just economics...


You're right, the economics don't make much sense.

I would say there are also physical barriers. None of the Hyperloop companies have (to my knowledge) explained how they would deal with the expansion problems presented by a long, exposed steel tube. They also haven't really considered the safety implications of a vacuum breach, which could prove fatal and cause serious damage to the entire system.

Either way I see this going nowhere fast, yet the media keep hyping Elon Musk's ridiculous (and in many cases unoriginal) ideas.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:07 am

Someday we will discover a test tube under New York dug by the Boring Company, 500’ underneath the Beach pneumatic subway.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby djlong » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:43 am

1) It's not a vacuum.

2) The reason that the press gives Musk all the ink is becuase, love him or hate him, he's done more things that "have never been done before" than anyone else in recent memory. It's been historically unwise to bet against the guy.

Now, I'm not a total fanboy.. The one thing Musk *consistently* gets wrong (sometimes by incredible margins) is his scale of time - when he thinks a given 'something' can be delivered.

He practically invented internet banking (PayPal). He took over a small startup car company that had produced nothing and built electric cars that *nobody* thought possilbe (and, full disclosure, I own a Tesla Model 3). He also invested his PayPal profits into creating a rocket company from scratch, becoming the first private corporation to put a rocket in orbit (as opposed to a government-funded program), and then has made more and better rockets that are doing things that were science fiction not too long ago (simultaneously landing booster rockets???) - to say nothing of his price/performance ratios that beat the pants of of everyone from NASA/ULA to Roscosmos and even have the Chinese wondering how he does it.

So when he's talking Hyperloop, people listen. Let's face it, when Musk released his white paper, there were a lot of people who said it would never work and that we'd never see anything you could actually touch. Now we have prototypes on test tracks going over 200mph.

I have a button in my collection that says "I didn't know it was impossible when I did it".
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby ConstanceR46 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:41 am

He practically invented internet banking (PayPal).


He wasn't very good at it as he got kicked out 2 years later.


He took over a small startup car company that had produced nothing and built electric cars that *nobody* thought possilbe (and, full disclosure, I own a Tesla Model 3).


While managing to be Really Bad at supply chain management and even getting into fights with the Union Pacific.

becoming the first private corporation to put a rocket in orbit


That's just flat-out wrong. Space Services Inc's Conestoga was the first private rocket in orbit.

more and better rockets that are doing things that were science fiction not too long ago


Falcon Heavy's not better until it's actually launching things.

tl;dr Apartheid Man isn't as good as you think he is.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby mtuandrew » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:12 pm

Mod Note: gentle reminder that Hyperloop isn’t Musk and vice versa, even though they’re linked.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby bostontrainguy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:02 am

Redacted
Last edited by mtuandrew on Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby ConstanceR46 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:41 am

Redacted
Last edited by mtuandrew on Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby mtuandrew » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:26 pm

Moderator Note: ok, you’ve been warned. Enough about Elon.

Unlocked, but stay with the trains and not the guy. This isn’t MuskFanBoy Dot Com.
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby D40LF » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:37 pm

djlong wrote:1) It's not a vacuum.


Its basically a 99% vacuum, so if it fails, it'll be very similar to an actual vacuum failure.

djlong wrote:So when he's talking Hyperloop, people listen. Let's face it, when Musk released his white paper, there were a lot of people who said it would never work and that we'd never see anything you could actually touch. Now we have prototypes on test tracks going over 200mph.


Over 200mph. So what? Maglevs could do that several decades ago, without having to run in an expensive, impractical, depressurized tube. The only Hyperloop test tracks that have been built thus far are very short, and have done little to prove the practicality or commercial viability of this idea. And besides, Elon Musk didn't even invent this concept (he only gave it a new name). Its an idea that's been around since the early 1900s (look up Goddard Vactrain), and yet it never seems to go anywhere.

Here's an interesting article in Railway Gazette about this: https://www.railwaygazette.com/analysis ... -hype.html
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Re: Hyperloop and other vactrains

Postby electricron » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:42 am

D40LF wrote:
djlong wrote:1) It's not a vacuum.
It's basically a 99% vacuum, so if it fails, it'll be very similar to an actual vacuum failure.


The faster trains go, the higher the resistance from air.
Check out planes, and how altitudes effect the corresponding atmospheric pressure.
https://www.mide.com/pages/air-pressure ... calculator
-5000 feet 1.19 atm 17.55 psi
-4000 feet 1.15 atm 16.95 psi
-3000 feet 1.11 atm 16.36 psi
-2000 feet 1.07 atm 15.79 psi
-1000 feet 1.04 atm 15.24 psi
-500 feet 1.02 atm 14.96 psi
0 feet 1.00 atm 14.70 psi
500 feet 0.98 atm 14.43 psi
1000 feet 0.96 atm 14.17 psi
2000 feet 0.93 atm 13.66 psi
3000 feet 0.90 atm 13.17 psi
4000 feet 0.86 atm 12.69 psi
5000 feet 0.83 atm 12.23 psi
10000 feet 0.69 atm 10.11 psi
20000 feet 0.46 atm 6.75 psi
30000 feet 0.30 atm 4.36 psi
40000 feet 0.19 atm 2.72 psi
50000 feet 0.11 atm 1.68 psi
60000 feet 0.07 atm 1.04 psi

Between 30,000 and 40,000 feet above sea level is where most commercial jetliners fly, betwwn 1/4 and 1/5 atmosphere pressure, or if you want to look at it the other way around, between 75% and 80% vacuum. They could not reach the cruising speeds they fly at if there wasn't a partial vacuum. Trains can't either, hyperloop, meglev, or high speed rail.
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