Not joking around

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Not joking around

Postby mwichten » Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:22 am

I really don't think that the MTA PD, SCPD, NCPD or NYPD are joking around anymore:

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-bc-ny--transit-security0722jul22,0,1972047.story?coll=ny-homepage-bigpix2005

Granted, this guy is probably some random EDP, but there is not really much difference between an emotionally disturbed person and a terrorist when it comes to blowing stuff up.

Think twice next time you feel that you are "being hassled by the Man".
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Postby Clemuel » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:53 am

This dopey Puerto Rican kook with

"machete, imitation handguns, an electronic stun gun and chukka sticks"

is being used by the Police to justify random searches and frisking of LIRR passengers.

Someone's got to reel this stupidity in before we have no liberty left and the entire State budget is spent on MTA PD overtime.

Clem
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Postby badneighbor » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:22 pm

its about common sense, not threatening anyone's rights. i dont want my right to stay alive and see my kids grow up denied, so some ACLU crybabies don't have their knapsack checked going through Penn. You are so worried about your rights, if no one checks bags, then your right to be alive tomorrow is in jeopardy.
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Postby pgengler » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:26 pm

badneighbor wrote:its about common sense, not threatening anyone's rights. i dont want my right to stay alive and see my kids grow up denied, so some ACLU crybabies don't have their knapsack checked going through Penn. You are so worried about your rights, if no one checks bags, then your right to be alive tomorrow is in jeopardy.


Right from the start, I'll put out there that I'm libertarian, and a card-carrying member of the ACLU, and so I value people's rights higher than a lot of things (and higher than most people would, I bet). That said, while the "right to be alive tomorrow" is important, it needs to be balanced against all of the other rights. I, for one, don't believe that one's right to privacy ends as soon as they leave their home; if you wanted to carry something around inside a bag, because it was socially embarassing, you should be able to do that, and not be expected to have to show it to anyone unless you want them to.
Balancing is very important here; sure, we can really cut down on the likelihood of a terror attack by stopping everyone and searching them and everything they own, we could give everyone a national ID and then institute checkpoints in the country (which is something recommended by the 9/11 Commission and at least one senator), but if we did that, could we really say that we are free?

I'd be more than happy to continue this conversation via e-mail or PM, if it's too off-topic for the forum.
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It's a difficult issue

Postby Head-end View » Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:38 pm

I somewhat agree with Clem here. These random searches may be successful for their deterrent effect. But the only way to insure safety would be to inspect every single bag and that's not feasible on mass transit. Meanwhile there are serious legal/constitutional questions here that need to be addressed. This is America, not the former Soviet Union. I think the present actions are a knee-jerk reaction to what happened in London.

How far are we going to take this reasoning? If someone blows up a McDonalds, will that justify searching everyone who enters fast-food restaurants?

Anyway Clem, I somewhat share your sentiment with the exception of your ethnic group reference. We should not be making those kinds of comments here. After all there could even be rail-buffs in the group you mentioned.
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Postby Clemuel » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:49 pm

There was no reference to an ethnic group in my post, Head. Please read it again.

I simply stated that this obviously dopey man was Puerto Rican. Maybe a guy with fake guns and chukka sticks isn't a kook. In Sunday Newsday's words he has a "fascination with weaponry"...

There are obvious arguements on both sides of the newfound "pat-down-search-stuff" mentality, the most significant of which is the "propeganda (for lack of a better term)" value illustrating to the masses that government is caring for them.

Then there is always the chance that the MTA Police will actually open a briefcase and foil a terrorist ring -- and this remote chance foils any criticism and permits them to openly feed from the budget.

In this hailstorm of look-how-much-we-care blitz, some effort must be spent on the unglamorous job of deciding how to handle emergencies should they occur. If a bomb goes off, do we await another four? Or do we shut operations and get people off trains? How fast can we shut the cellular system to stop the remote detinetion of other devices?

I know this goes beyond the scope of this discussion, but attention must be focused here. There are only a handful of us crying out for this on the Long Island. It's meeting resistance from those same people who would rather replace 800-pound concrete ties than maintain the stone they sit on.

We are pushing hard to get some of these real nuts and bolts life saving issues implemented. They will made my family and yours safer.

Clem
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Postby harmon44 » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:19 am

The real problem here is we all don't get it. We are at war. A war unlike any other we have had to fight. The enemy does not put on a uniform and fight. The battlefield is the street and the targets are civilians. The more infidels they can kill the better. The sooner,we get this through our heads, we can make the difficult decisions to fight the enemy. It's quite obvious that the battlefield now chosen is mass transit. I don't like they idea of searches, however, the Constitution has always permitted restrictions in wartime. These searches are legal as long as the method of picking the people searched is not random and based upon descrection. There must be a pre-determined method. It is our mindset that is the problem. The terrorist want to kill us all and rule the world. We need to unite and face the real threat. Otherwise we will live in a place that accepts 30, 50 + deaths a month as the blow things up.
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Postby pgengler » Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:29 pm

harmon44 wrote:The real problem here is we all don't get it. We are at war. A war unlike any other we have had to fight. The enemy does not put on a uniform and fight. The battlefield is the street and the targets are civilians. The more infidels they can kill the better. The sooner,we get this through our heads, we can make the difficult decisions to fight the enemy. It's quite obvious that the battlefield now chosen is mass transit. I don't like they idea of searches, however, the Constitution has always permitted restrictions in wartime. These searches are legal as long as the method of picking the people searched is not random and based upon descrection. There must be a pre-determined method. It is our mindset that is the problem. The terrorist want to kill us all and rule the world. We need to unite and face the real threat. Otherwise we will live in a place that accepts 30, 50 + deaths a month as the blow things up.


A few points:
1) Apparently the "good guys" are killing civilians too.

2) Perhaps the battlefield "now" is mass transit, but after 9/11 it was airplanes. Each time, security around the last targets goes up, and the terrorists find a new place to strike. It's been said before, but we're almost always "fighting the last war" and not the next one.

3) Ensuring the preservation of liberty during wartime is especially important. Even the 9/11 Commission recognized this, with a line in their report reading "Yet, if our liberties are curtailed, we lost the values that we are struggling to defend." Earl Warren said "It would indeed be ironic if, in the name of national defense, we would sanction the subversion of one of those liberties which make the defense of our nation worthwhile." And most imprtant, I think, is this one from Ramsey Clark: "A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you."

4) "Otherwise we will live in a place that accepts 30, 50 + deaths a month as the blow things up." How many deaths do we accept from auto accidents? How many people are killed each year from being hit by a train? We've come to accept that a certain number of deaths from these are effective inevitable (for auto accidents, according to the US DOT, works out to around 3188 people per month for 2003). Sure, we could tighten the controls on issuing licenses, so that people who drive are more likely to be "good" at it, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Instead, the response has been to try and make accidents more survivable, instead of less likely. What makes terror attacks different, other than the fact that we can point to an "enemy" who looks different and and has different ideas?

Anyway, I've set up a mailing list for discussion on this, if anyone wants to move discussion away from here or if this thread is locked. The page for signing up is here and the e-mail address is rail-security@aodnetwork.com.
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Postby Robert Paniagua » Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:04 pm

We had similar searches like that here in Boston with the MBTA during last summer's DNC, but I took it all in stride. I'm also a rail user too, and if I ever get searched in NYCTA/LIRR/MNR, I would also gladly show everything I got in my luggage even my camera too.
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Clemuel

Postby howardr142 » Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:56 pm

I don't know where you come from but I glad I don't have to deal with you. Watch your damn mouth. I many not offend your klan members but you will end up pissing someone off.
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Re: Clemuel

Postby Derek Bernier » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:58 pm

howardr142 wrote:I don't know where you come from but I glad I don't have to deal with you. Watch your damn mouth. I many not offend your klan members but you will end up pissing someone off.


Friggin' right bro.

Clemuel,

don't start being abusive towards other people on this board

c'mon, now, use more appropiate demeanor, at least i don't have to deal with ya either.

either show respect Clemuel or don't post, just some advice from a little friend. have a great day..
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Postby M1 9147 » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:21 pm

Since I got stopped at Grand Central 2 years ago by cops, and National Guard for taking pics of trains at platform level, there is nothing I can do but cooperate with law enforcement if I'm asked to open my bags. I will kindly explain every detail to them before asking, so they won't get any suspicion of what's what. The best thing also is not to carry any police scanner so that if anyone asks why I'm bringing it, they won't think I'm a terrorist by trait.
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Postby Long Island 7285 » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:32 pm

I just tell them streight out and volenteer my bag for a serch. I find that being honost and telling them as it is leaves less need for suspission. thats if i get asked for a serch.

if i get taged i get prepared for the confrentation, get out ID,PBAcard, and what not. and even some train magizines (if i have them) i kindly approch the officer with everything ready for him/her and just try to start a casual converastion. some times it works some times i get asked nicely to move on, and even then i still run is to real dick bags that dont want to be friendly to their own kind and are threatning cuffs after the ID was showen.

these days you just have to play your cards right and gamble your right to take footage for the right to security. but in the very end nothing they do can or will stop the determind to attck us.
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Postby ANDY117 » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:53 pm

Howard, calm down. If i lived in the city, i'd have no problem with them searching my bags. Know why? Because i have nothing to hide. And if you have nothing to hide, then what is everyone getting so worked up over? Oh no, my bags are being searched, im being held up for 2 minutes so i don't get blown up by a crazy islamofascist who wants to blow me up. For some reason, that kinda outweighs the option to say no and whine about how my rights are being violated. which right would you rather have, the right to life, or the right to be buried in a cemetery in 50 pieces? that's a tough one...
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Postby badneighbor » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:04 am

ok, i guess everyone's problem with Clem was the use of the words 'kook' and 'dopey', along with 'Puerto Rican'. I suppose the politically correct terminology should have been used, such as 'emotionally challenged Hispanic-American of Puerto Rican descent'. Please Clem, do some soul searching and try to keep the Political Corrrectness updated. Thank you, from the Society of Niceness and Non-Offensiveness.

Gimme a break... call a spade a spade... the nut could have caused a stampede, and hurt a lot of people in a panic. He needs to be punished harshly as possible.

7285.. why do you go out intending to have confrontations with cops? don't you know they are already on edge about this? that many of them will have no reason not to haul you away and collect overtime while waiting to see a judge? Your attitude is what will ban photography and videotaping.
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