fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby FCP503 » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:42 am

The three unit ones are 3TE10's. The middle unit is a cabless booster. Not sure about the couplers.

I think it is very interesting how the stacks on these units are angled towards each other slightly. It creates an interesting vortex effect where the two exhaust columns interact with each other.
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Petz » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:38 am

In a german book "V200 - Geschichte der Taigatrommel" (the german nickname "taigadrum" based on the M62´s special engine noise - able to vibrate house windows and doors....:P ) about the 4 cycled M62 and it´s history the older 2 - cycled 2/3Te10´s are described being fitted with rubber bellows and automatic couplers between the loco parts - see the attached drawing.

Kolomna2Te10Drawing.jpg
Kolomna2Te10Drawing.jpg (27.71 KiB) Viewed 6539 times


Some pictures of the engine types can be seen at Kolomna´s historic website part - i´m sure this are no unknown sights for american railroaders...... :wink: :-D

http://www.kolomnadiesel.com/eng/about/ ... 1945-1959/
http://www.kolomnadiesel.com/eng/about/ ... 1959-1977/

Besides that some kasachstan 2Te10 will get a new heart from GE......

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-126312957.html
Best regards, Markus
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby dash7 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:56 am

:-D thanks for the video and reply,the problem i find is, its so hard to get technical specs on russian locomotives on the net!,but i love em too,cheers, derek. :-D
GE JUST DON'T MAKE TOASTERS YA KNOW!
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Petz » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:53 pm

Have a few technical values in the V200 book too, the 2TE3 is the older version:


2TE3:
axles: Co Co + Co Co
weight: 2 x 126 tons
max. axle rail pressure: 21 tons
length: 33,948 meters
max. speed: 100 km/h
max. traction force 40400 mp (megapond)
engine: 2 x 2D100 10 cylinder 2 - stroke opposite piston engines
2000 hp each at 850 rpm

2TE10:
axles: Co Co + Co Co
weight: 2 x 129 tons
max. axle rail pressure: 21,50 tons
length: 34,00 meters
max. speed: 100 km/h
max. traction force 52000 mp (megapond)
engine: 2 x 10D100 10 cylinder 2 - stroke opposite piston engines
turbocharged 3000 hp each at 850 rpm
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby dash7 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:20 pm

thanks alot for the info!,petz,great stuff!,cheers derek :-D
GE JUST DON'T MAKE TOASTERS YA KNOW!
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Petz » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:24 pm

Pleased to help, unfortunately i have no further informations about the locos except the fact that the Kolomna company had built a few thousands units of the older TE3.
I´m sure much more further details would have been uploaded but without knowledge of the russian language we will hardly have a chance to find the pages.
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Petz » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:39 pm

Besides the russian TE3 and TE10 locos we have to include the chinese DF3 diesels in our collection of FM - copies too. The DF and DF3 also based on the russian TE3 design.
Here is a text from a chinese ebayer who offers H0 - DF3´s about the origin loco:

History of DF and DF3

In september 1958 Dalian locomotive and rolling Stock Works (DLoco) produced a 2 unit, 4000 horsepower diesel electric engine. This engine was based on the Soviet TE3 diesel engine. The prototype was given a vivid name -Julong (Giant Dragon). DLoco conducted many experiments and performed serveral enhancements on its major components and parts before it went into production.

According to the Sino-Soviet technology cooperation agreement, in 1959 the Soviets provided a full set of TE3 blueprints to DLoco. Based on these blueprints and the trial runs done on Julong. DLoco made improvements and redesigned its blueprints. In September 1964 the production of the diesel engine formally began. This locomotive was classified as ND (Nei Dian which means diesel electric in Chinese). In August 1966, the classification was changed from ND to DF (Dong Feng which means east wind) to represent good fortune. Since 1970 over 100 units of DF were produced annually. By 1973 a total of 706 units were built.

In order to fulfill the urgent need for dieselization of passenger services DLoco modified DF`s traction motor to increase the maximum speed from 100 km/h to 120 km/h. DLoco accomplished this by changing the gear ratio from 75/17 to 71/21. With this change came a new classification DF3. DF signified a gear ratio of 75/17 and was generally used for freight traffic, while DF3 signified a gear ratio of 71/21 and was used for passenger travel.

For 10 years between 1964 and 1973 DF`s and DF3`s were massively produced. During this time over 50% of the national diesel fleet was DF or DF3 class. However, in 1974, DF3`s role in passenger services gradually decreased because of the introduction of a more efficient and powerful diesel engine DF4. At this point many DF3`s were geared back to 75/17 and thus became DF class throughout the years. Thus, DF3s honourably retired.

Between 1983 and 1992 the role of DFs was for freight traffic. The number of DF`s reached its peak at 886 by 1990. DFs also held a record for length of service. The longest service span for a DF diesel engine was 35 years, and the second longest service span was 25 years. Most DFs slowly faded out of history`s stage. Now only a few remain in good condition and are being used for light switching jobs.

DF diesel engines were the backbone of early stage dieselization and have contributed tremendously to the development of China`s transit system. As the father and soul of China`s diesel engine DFs and DF3s have certainly played a vital role in the development of the China railway industry.


Think if FM would have got the licence amounts they surely would have reached a much better reputation and played a more important roll in the locomotive business too.
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby FCP503 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:56 pm

Very interesting post! I never connected the DF and DF3 as being opposed piston. It's also nice to learn what "ND" and "DF" stand for. Did this person have any information on the DF4 series? If memory serves these units have a 4 stroke cycle V16 engine, but I don't know if this engine was domestically derived, or if it is a copy of something else...(the Kolomna 4 stroke perhaps?)
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Petz » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:42 am

That´s the link to his shop:
http://stores.ebay.at/RABY-BOOSTER_Dies ... idZ2QQtZkm
He has some detailed origin descriptions on each item but unfortunately no engine details for the DF4 but based on the sound i´m rather sure that the DF4 is fitted with a 16 cylinder 4 cycle diesel; sounds rather similar to the big Sulzer, GE or Alco diesel engines. The chinese ND - series had been built by Electroputere Craiova in Romania using Sulzer licences; later Electroputere uses Alco - licence built E and F engines for romanian and export locos to Greece so it seems to be possible that the chinese loco factory had used a Sulzer design based prime mover in the DF4.
Will post more technical details about the russian Sergei (M62) and Ludmilla locos later here.
Best regards, Markus
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Petz » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:02 pm

FCP503 wrote:Very interesting post! I never connected the DF and DF3 as being opposed piston. It's also nice to learn what "ND" and "DF" stand for. Did this person have any information on the DF4 series? If memory serves these units have a 4 stroke cycle V16 engine, but I don't know if this engine was domestically derived, or if it is a copy of something else...(the Kolomna 4 stroke perhaps?)


Peter Lim Yan, another very serious, helpfully and nice railway model ebay trader from Hongkong speaking english and a bit german too
http://stores.ebay.at/id=6060726
that i asked about the DF4 sent me this link to the DF4 producers english homepage part so fortunately we´ll have some values of the loco now too:
http://www.zyloco.com/english/cpsj/df4b.htm
Direkt engine link:
http://www.zyloco.com/english/cpsj/16V240ZJB.htm
Best regards, Markus
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby FCP503 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:52 am

The engine does look somewhat like a Sulzer engine. The camshaft access is a lot differant, as are the crankcase access hatches. Still the general layout is quite simular. The data I have doesn't say how many degrees apart the banks of cylinders are in the Sulzer engine. If it is 50 degrees then these engines may well share a common ancestry.

The mirrored turbo/aftercooler on each end is interesting, and it would be interesting to know if appreciable performance was gained from that arrangement. The Sulzer engines I have pics of have two turbos on the same end.

Petz, thank for the links :-)
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Petz » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:40 pm

When hearing the sound of the DF4 (and DF11 too) i would believe they had a Sulzer - based engine cause it´s sounds harder under full load then thze big Alcos or Ge´s and this had been rather typical for the Sulzers.
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Nasadowsk » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:40 pm

Weirder things have happened - post WWII, the British actually licensed jet engine designs to both the US and USSR (supposedly, even Stalin was surprised that they got such a license!). This created the interesting situation in the Korean war of planes with identical engines on both sides, shooting at each other.

Both sides also raided Germany for technical data - thus the old joke about their Germans vs our Germans in the space race.

I doubt any straight FM copy would have been that way for long - the Russians had no qualms about copying others (but then - nobody else did back then either!), but tended to use such copies as a basis, and make their own improvements. They do like letting others invent the wheel while they perfect it, though...
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Petz » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:36 am

Nasadowsk wrote:I doubt any straight FM copy would have been that way for long
I wouldn´t see it that pessimistic...:wink: Railroads that did a careful service (like Virginian) got good results from their locos but for the most uneducated and not specially trained railway employees the FM´s had been unloved childs and so they would be handled by them. The Russian state railway did proper servicing with trained personal, Kolomna upgrades and further developements but FM surely would have done the same if they had stayed in the locomotive business.
Best regards, Markus
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Nasadowsk » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:11 am

Petz wrote:I wouldn´t see it that pessimistic...:wink: Railroads that did a careful service (like Virginian) got good results from their locos but for the most uneducated and not specially trained railway employees the FM´s had been unloved childs and so they would be handled by them. The Russian state railway did proper servicing with trained personal, Kolomna upgrades and further developements but FM surely would have done the same if they had stayed in the locomotive business.


Oh, I didn't mean it was an unsuited engine - just that the Russians would have 'localized' it. They tended to do that. Of course, being effectively a whole different development line from FM, sooner or later, things would have been changed around from the FM design. As much as folks in the US like to think otherwise, the Russians really DO know what they're doing with stuff...
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