ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

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ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby howie729 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:29 pm

Went to Reisdorfs for dog food today and there is a new/old coach on blocks. I was wondering where it came from and what needs to be done to it? I will get a picture tomorrow. Didn't have the camera with me today.
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Re: Coach on Blocks?

Postby BSOR Patarak » Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:45 am

The coach is the new acquisition from the Knox and Kane. It was trucked in Wednesday. It was purchased because it had nice bathrooms in one end. There is a bit of work to do before it returns to service, but it should be around for next season.
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Re: Coach on Blocks?

Postby Benjamin Maggi » Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:50 am

A non-Boonton coach? That should make things interesting indeed!
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Re: Coach on Blocks?

Postby thebigham » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:20 pm

Wow! A new coach.

I'll take pics on Wednesday.
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Re: Coach on Blocks?

Postby howie729 » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:29 pm

Sorry been busy...try to get a picture soon. Might be a bit snow covered with all the snow today.
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Re: Coach on Blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby BSOR Patarak » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:55 pm

Here is a picture of the new coach purchased form the Knox & Kane Auction. It is an ex- Long Island commuter car, #7002. They were nick-named "Ping Pong"s. I'm not sure if it is because of their round end windows or the fact that they were so light and bounced all over on bad track. Anyone with more details on these cars would be interesting to hear from.

Image

This one came from the Steamtown Collection of Bellows Falls, VT.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=528578

Here is another view from Scranton:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/dlw7002.jpg

The coach still sits at North Java. It awaits replacement axles as the original wheels on one truck are worn a bit. The restrooms on this car will be an improvement over facilities now available at the end of the line. It should become ARA 313 once it is readied for service.
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Re: Coach on Blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby Mountcastle » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:11 pm

Naturally it's orange.

Take a look at this thread for more on 'Ping-Pongs':

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=56477&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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Re: ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby n2qhvRMLI » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:54 pm

Good evening A&A Forum Members,

Here is another thread regarding the source of the moniker "Ping Pong!"

http://lirr.thermomods.com/index.php/topic,1952.0.html

The thread also has an excellent photo of a P54 in Long Island livery. These cars were everywhere on the LIRR and to my knowledge they were hated by the commuters. They were hot in summer, no air conditioning - only open windows, and the ride was - as the thread states - terrible.

Today on Long Island the hatred of "Ping Pongs" has turned into a love affair with "Ping Pongs." I have personally taken heat for not "saving" a P54 coach at the Railroad Museum of Long Island, (that is a story for another thread and another time :-D ). Thankfully, the Oyster Bay Railroad Museum has obtained a Knox & Kane "Ping" and will be moving it to their Museum at Oyster Bay, Long Island early in 2009.

Good luck with your new car. I think it will perform very nicely at the track speeds the A&A uses on excursions. Happy New Year!

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Re: ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby nyandw » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:47 pm

Don is quite right! The railfans/historians/buffs/etc. what the Ping Pongs back, but the average Joe commuter cursed the day! Here's my LIRR P54D Ping Pong Cars page: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/lirrpingpong.htm

Image
LIRR #38 Photo: Jersey City NJ - 01/73 - Karl Geffchen

Enjoy!

Image
Goodrich, Warren. Change At Jamaica a commuter’s guide to survival. New York, New York: The Vanguard Press – now Random House, 1957. This is an interesting book, the first part of the book is for east bound commuters and the book starts again from the back (turn the book upside down) for west bound commuting.

This book is on Ebay all the time and provides insight (with humor) into the plight of the commuter. The East /West orientation binding reflects the morning/evening commute trials faced daily; comments abound on the cars of course..
Best,
Steve
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Re: ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby BSOR Patarak » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:12 am

Thanks for the information. I wonder if there are any rosters of these cars? Who built them and when. Were they renumbered? What was car 7002 originally?

Thanks,
Pat
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Re: ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby trainspot » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:10 pm

I may be corrected by the LIRR "expert", but here's what I have to offer.
LIRR P54Ds #1-138 were built in 1927 by ACF (American Car Foundary).
Some of these cars were modernized starting 1954 with new interiors and mechanical upgrades and the numbers were changed by adding "7000". So the #7002 was built as the #2. Not all of the cars were modernized, so there were some running around with old numbers and some in 7000 numbers.
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Re: ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby Mountcastle » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:09 am

From what I've been reading it sounds as if this type of coach is every bit as...adventurous...as the coaches the Arcade & Attica has been using all along. And from the images I've seen, I'm wondering just how much of a comfort upgrade this coach represents to the rest of the excursion train.

The rest facilities, I've read, are superior to those offered by the Boontons (essentially a narrow closet with a hole in the floor) but as I look at the pictures I find it difficult to imagine anything very much better.

Not to poo-poo the acquisition, however. It will be interesting after all these decades to see and to ride on a noticeably different sort of coach. I'm really looking forward to experiencing the new look and feel of the Arcade & Attica RR this Spring. I can smell the soot and popcorn already.
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Re: ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby thebigham » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:11 pm

The weather was so bad when I was home and I ran out of time so I could not get to North Java to gets pics of the new passing siding and the coach. Sorry.
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Re: ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby UN Block » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:33 pm

Trainspot and others,

You asked for it! (This is long!)

Here's the details for the P54D class of LIRR cars, aka the "Ping-Pongs," as built:

1-138, American Car & Foundry, Mar-Oct 1927
392-421, Standard Steel Car Co, Feb 1921
422-451, American Car & Foundry, Jun 1922-Jun 1923
462-481, American Car & Foundry, Apr 1926

As mentioned before, many (but not all) were modernized and renumbered into the 7000 series.

What follows is everything I know about these cars, courtesy of an absolutely incredible roster produced by the late Robert Emery which now resides at Stony Brook University, Stony Brook, NY:

P54D DETAILS
Exterior: Arch-roof locomotive-hauled coach; five roof ventilators; diaphragms; porthole windows in end sheets; lightweight trucks.
Interior: 76-seat coach; 2/2 reversible rattan seats (1-50, 91-99, 101-138, 462-481); 2/2 reversible plush seats (rest of class); two toilets; baggage racks; baseboard and underseat heating; water cooler; single sliding end doors; 32v lighting system.
Modifications:
392-421 converted to multiple-unit trailers, class T54A, and 422-451 converted to multiple-unit trailers, class T54B, in 1925 for the Babylon electrification. Safety chains replaced diaphragms, underseat electric heating replaced baseboard steam heating, bare bulb DC lights replaced 32v lighting, water cooler removed and rattan seats replaced the plush seats in later years.
51-90 converted to multiple-unit control motors, class MP54D1, on dates listed below and renumbered 1944-1983, in sequence:
Car # Date Car # Date Car # Date
51 5-1930 65 4-1930 78 6-1930
52 5-1930 66 5-1930 79 5-1930
53 5-1930 67 5-1930 80 6-1930
54 6-1930 68 6-1930 81 4-1930
55 5-1930 69 5-1930 82 6-1930
56 6-1930 70 5-1930 83 6-1930
57 5-1930 71 5-1930 84 6-1930
58 6-1930 72 5-1930 85 5-1930
59 6-1930 73 6-1930 86 6-1930
60 5-1930 74 6-1930 87 6-1930
61 5-1930 75 5-1930 88 6-1930
62 6-1930 76 6-1930 89 7-1930
63 5-1930 77 6-1930 90 6-1930
64 6-1930
These cars had recessed headlights installed, diaphragms replaced with safety chains, heavy roller bearing trucks replaced the lightweight trucks, rattan seats replaced plush with an increase in seating to 78, DC lighting replaced 32v system, electric underseat heating replaced baseboard and underseat steam heating. Cars reclassified MP54D1c as automatic speed control apparatus was installed in 1951.
All other cars had their diaphragms replaced by safety chains in 1953-54.
120-122, 125, 126, 131 and 135 had 3/2 leather seats installed in 1953 with no change in their heating systems.
Modernization: 3/2 vinyl seating for 88; recessed lighting in ceiling; one toilet removed; new baggage racks; baseboard heating modified; underseat heating removed; renumbered into the 7000’s.
403, 404, 411, 416, 425, 428-432, 435, 437-439, 442, 444, 446 and 448 received 3/2 vinyl seating for 91, otherwise same as above; renumbered into 6000’s.
392-401, 408, 409, 414, 424, 426, 433 and 436 converted back into locomotive-hauled coaches, class P54D. Baseboard steam heat replaced underseat electric heat; 32v recessed lighting in ceiling replaced DC lighting; water cooler installed; 3/2 vinyl seating for 88; one toilet removed; renumbered into 7000’s.
1944-1983 received 3/2 vinyl seating for 89; electric fans; recessed lighting; baseboard heat replaced underseat heat; one toilet removed; new side doors with porthole windows were installed on some cars; renumbered into 4000’s.
General: Commuter traffic on the main line from Floral Park west was extremely heavy from 1925-30. Westbound 12 car multiple-unit trains were packed by the time they got to Jamaica. The 12 car multiple-unit’s that started at Jamaica were packed after they left Forest Hills. The railroad knew traffic was going to decline abruptly from Queens Village west after the IND subway, which was under construction, opened up. Rather than buy more new multiple-unit’s, which would not be needed after a few years, the railroad converted the locomotive-hauled coaches to multiple-unit’s. P54D’s 1-137 enabled the railroad to retire the last of its wooden coaches in the summer of 1927. P54D’s 1-50, 91-99, 101-138 and 462-481 (117 cars), as of 1-1-1942, furnished base service on Patchogue-Babylon “Scoots”, Jamaica-Ronkonkoma and Long Island City-Oyster Bay trains. They weren’t normally used to Speonk and Port Jefferson. After 1946, however, they were used everywhere. 38 last unmodernized car in service.
Dispositions:
1 saved for preservation, in storage at Richmond Hill Coach Yard.
20 converted to W59, 4-1969.
21 wrecked in derailment at Pineaire, 1-24-1971, and scrapped on site.
34 wrecked in a yard collision at Speonk, 1-1968.
100 renumbered 138 soon after delivery since wooden business car 100 was already on roster.
121 wrecked at Huntington, 11-27-1966.
125 wrecked in a yard collision in Richmond Hill Coach Yard, 1-2-1968.
466 wrecked at Brookhaven, 3-1964, and scrapped.
765 wrecked in derailment at Pineaire, 1-24-1971, and scrapped on site.
4959 wrecked in a derailment at C Tower, Penn Station, 3-1964, and scrapped.
4971 wrecked in Carleton Avenue Yard, 6-7-1970, and scrapped on site.
7002 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Refurbished in 1976 and named Thomas Chittenden for use on the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition. Sold to Knox & Kane RR, Marienville PA. Auctioned off and sold for scrap, 10-10-2008. Sold to Arcade & Attica RR, Arcade NY, 11-2008.
7003 wrecked in derailment at Winfield, 5-21-1973, and scrapped on site.
7004 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7014 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7016 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974.
7018 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975. Resold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT.
7031 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Sold to Knox & Kane RR, Marienville PA. Auctioned off and sold for scrap, 10-10-2008.
7035 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Refurbished in 1976 and named Remember Baker for use on the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition.
7037 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7042 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7045 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Resold to West Virginia Northern Railroad, Kingwood, WV. Resold to Walkersville Southern Railroad, Walkersville, MD and renumbered 14.
7091 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Sold to Gettysburg Scenic RR, Gettysburg, PA and renumbered 709. Sold to Walkersville Southern Railroad, Walkersville, MD, 02-2004 and renumbered back to 7091.
7092 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974.
7094 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7098 wrecked in a collision at Richmond Hill Coach Yard about 1961 and scrapped.
7099 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Rebuilt in 1976 into a diner and named The Cephas Kent Inn for use on the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition. Sold to Knox & Kane RR, Marienville PA. Auctioned off and sold for scrap, 10-10-2008.
7102 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Refurbished in 1976 and named Ira Allen for use on the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition. Resold to Village Rail Excursions, Inc. (equipment dealer), 7-1987 and resold to Carthage, Knightstown & Shirley RR, Carthage, IN, for excursion service.
7107 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7109 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Refurbished in 1976 and named Captain Peleg Sunderland for use on the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition. Sold to Knox & Kane RR, Marienville PA. Auctioned off and sold for scrap, 10-10-2008.
7113 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7114 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7115 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974.
7118 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7127 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 3-29-1975.
7128 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Sold to Gettysburg Scenic RR, Gettysburg, PA and renumbered 709. Sold to Walkersville Southern Railroad, Walkersville, MD, 02-2004 and renumbered back to 7128.
7129 wrecked in derailment at Winfield, 5-21-1973.
7133 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Refurbished in 1976 and named Ann Story for use on the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition. Resold to Village Rail Excursions, Inc. (equipment dealer), 5-1986 and resold to McDonald Steel, McDonald, OH for intra-plant tours.
7136 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Rebuilt in 1976 into a bar car and named The Catamount Tavern for use on the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition. Resold to Village Rail Excursions, Inc. (equipment dealer), 5-1986 and resold to McDonald Steel, McDonald, OH for intra-plant tours.
7138 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7393 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 3-29-1975.
7394 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 3-29-1975.
7399 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974.
7401 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974.
7408 wrecked west of Port Jefferson, 1-19-1973, and scrapped on the siding at Setauket.
7426 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Refurbished in 1976 and named General John Stark for use on the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition.
7433 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Refurbished in 1976 and named Colonel Seth Warner for use on the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition. Sold to Knox & Kane RR, Marienville PA. Auctioned off and sold for scrap, 10-10-2008. Sold to Oyster Bay RR Museum, Oyster Bay NY, 11-2008.
7436 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 12-21-1974. Resold to West Virginia Northern Railroad, Kingwood, WV. Resold to Walkersville Southern Railroad, Walkersville, MD.
7467 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
7468 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975. Resold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT.
7472 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 3-29-1975.
7478 donated to Kentucky Railway Museum, Louisville, KY, 4-23-1976.
7483 sold to Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, VT, 9-29-1975.
7485 sold to a shopping center in Boonton, NJ, 1-13-1975.
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Re: ex-LIRR coach on blocks (from Knox & Kane)

Postby Mountcastle » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:29 am

Yes, yes, but what was Thomas Chittenden's middle name???

Seriously, though, how on earth does one possess such a litany of minutiae regarding these coaches? I'm astonished that such meticulous records are kept of old railway cars. At any rate, considering the Arcade & Attica's long, cannibalistic history of selling off their own treasures for scrap, it's nice to see that, in this case, they actually rescued a piece of railroad history from the scrapyard.

Still, I'm curious as to who Thomas Chittenden* was...and whether his name will be borne on the coach.

*Since posting this reply I Googled him: Thomas Chittenden was one of the State of Vermont's founding fathers and was the first governor of Vermont.
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