Mileage on The Putnam

Discussion relating to the NYC and subsidiaries, up to 1968. Visit the NYCS Historical Society for more information.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

Mileage on The Putnam

Postby Tom Curtin » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:00 pm

I just discovered that neither of the two recent superb books that cover the Put contains a station-to-station distance list (what I'm interested in is: all the way from Sedgwick Ave. to Put Junction, via the "new" routing, i.e., via Graham, not via Pocantico Hills) such as would be found in an employee TT. Can somebody post a copy of such a page on here?

(Note: what got me thinking about this is that my wife and I biked the ROW one day last week from Eastview to Briarcliff and back. When she asked me how far we went I didn't know!!)
Tom Curtin
 
Posts: 983
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:25 am

Postby Otto Vondrak » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:48 pm

Hrm... that's something that never occurred to me. I have some before-and-after ETT's I can get the info out of tonight. But Tom, how about that nifty map that shows the two routes through Tarrytown? :-)

www.nywbry.com/forgotten
---------------------------
I do not own this web site, nor do I serve any administrative function. Please contact the Site Administrator for assistance. -omv
User avatar
Otto Vondrak
 
Posts: 19743
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:47 pm
Location: New York

Putnam mileage

Postby Tom Curtin » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:54 am

The maps are terrific Otto!! But I assume you know what I am looking for: the page from the employee TT that shows precise station-to-station distances. Railroads posted them to at least the tenth of a mile, and some (like the New Haven, eg) to the hundredth of a mile.
Tom Curtin
 
Posts: 983
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:25 am

Postby R Paul Carey » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:17 am

Tom, by 1949 (timetable # 68A), all the Putnam Division stations are shown by their distance fron Sedgwick Avenue, so to answer your question: with East View (20.07), Graham (23.59), and Briarcliff Manor (25.30), the distance between East View and Briarcliff Manor via Graham is 5.23 miles.

I have bought the book Otto refers to (and the other one) and very highly recommend them, if you don't already have them!
R Paul Carey
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:12 am
Location: Reedville, VA

Postby Otto Vondrak » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:05 pm

Yeah, I missed the chance at buying a 1905 Put ETT which would have shown distances to 155th Street... but oh well. My 1922 ETT shows the distance measured from Sedgwick Ave to Putnam Junction is 53.49 miles.

17.82 Elmsford
18.66 Beaver Hill
20.06 East View
20.84 Lake
21.23 Tarrytown Heights
21.92 Tower Hill
22.75 Pocantico Hills
26.72 Briarcliff Manor

My 1946 ETT shows the distance from Sedgwick Ave to Put Junction to be 52.07 miles, a difference of 1.42 miles. Here's the 1931 route through East View:

17.82 Elmsford
18.66 Beaver Hill
20.07 East View (new)
23.59 Graham (new)
25.30 Briarcliff Manor

Hope this helps. Glad you guys are enjoying the book...

http://www.nywbry.com/forgotten

-otto-
---------------------------
I do not own this web site, nor do I serve any administrative function. Please contact the Site Administrator for assistance. -omv
User avatar
Otto Vondrak
 
Posts: 19743
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:47 pm
Location: New York

Postby R Paul Carey » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:35 am

My copy of NY and Putnam RR Timetable #18 (11/23/02), shows mileages from 155th St., to the nearest tenth of a mile. The distance between 155th St. and High Bridge is given as 1.1 miles.

I hope this helps...
R Paul Carey
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:12 am
Location: Reedville, VA

Postby RussNelson » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:16 pm

Was the Put relocated north of Elmsford to a location down the hill and away from the Saw Mill River Parkway? In this aerial photo the most recent ROW is evident, and I've marked the locations of another ROW higher on the hill.

Any intel on it? It's level and has cuts and fills. I looked in Otto's book and no mention of a relocation there. The book has no index and is not online so I can't Google it. I know of no other railroad in this same valley.

Could it be the Tarrytown Loop? It was abandoned in 1930 and the Saw Mill River built in 1954, so it's quite possible. Was the Tarrytown Loop higher in elevation at Eastview than the most recent ROW?
User avatar
RussNelson
 
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:20 am
Location: Potsdam, NY

Postby Tom Curtin » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:20 am

RussNelson wrote:Was the Put relocated north of Elmsford to a location down the hill and away from the Saw Mill River Parkway? . . .

Any intel on it? It's level and has cuts and fills. I looked in Otto's book and no mention of a relocation there. The book has no index and is not online so I can't Google it. I know of no other railroad in this same valley.

Could it be the Tarrytown Loop? It was abandoned in 1930 and the Saw Mill River built in 1954, so it's quite possible. Was the Tarrytown Loop higher in elevation at Eastview than the most recent ROW?

The Saw Mill Parkway in that area is much older than 1954. I think the parkway south of Chappaqua goes back to the early 30s
Tom Curtin
 
Posts: 983
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:25 am

Put distances

Postby Tom Curtin » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:29 am

Otto Vondrak wrote: My 1922 ETT shows the distance measured from Sedgwick Ave to Putnam Junction is 53.49 miles. . . . .

I well remember back in the mid 60s when the line was still in use Put Jct-Lake Mahopac seeing MP 53 at the point where the tracks came up alongside Rt 6 as you left Brewster headed towards Carmel. It was an original stone NYC post, and evidently -- to judge from the info presented here --- I would say it had been moved when 155th St was eliminated.

In the same period I remember MP 49 about 1/2 mile or less past the site of Carmel station, again alongside Rt 6 as you left Carmel headed for Mahopac.

Today, there's a milepost alongside the bikeway less than a mile north (compass north) of East View --- 21, or 22, I forget which. It is a concrete post, not the usual carved stone ones the "old" NYC used, and must have been put in for the 1930 reconstruction. It has a piece missing.

There are no doubt all kinds of archeological finds along that bikeway if you concentrate on looking for them. I know there is a fully intact telegraph pole or two ---- crossarms and all --- north of Millwood
Tom Curtin
 
Posts: 983
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:25 am

Postby Otto Vondrak » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:16 am

RussNelson wrote:Could it be the Tarrytown Loop? It was abandoned in 1930 and the Saw Mill River built in 1954, so it's quite possible. Was the Tarrytown Loop higher in elevation at Eastview than the most recent ROW?....I looked in Otto's book and no mention of a relocation there. The book has no index and is not online so I can't Google it.


There was a third route through East View, the original 1880 route that used a long wooden trestle to cross the valley. This was replaced by the loop around the reservoir, which was then replaced by the 1930 relocation. There's a map in my book that shows the loop route and the relocated mainline, but I omitted the 1880 trestle route.

What do you want an index of? And why would the book be online? :-)

The Saw Mill Parkway started construction in 1926. By 1930, it had reached Route 119 in Elmsford. Construction had only reached Chappaqua by 1940 when World War II halted any further progress. The Saw Mill Parkway was constructed along the Saw Mill River, as a sort of flood control project that never really worked right.

http://www.nycroads.com/roads/saw-mill/

-otto-
---------------------------
I do not own this web site, nor do I serve any administrative function. Please contact the Site Administrator for assistance. -omv
User avatar
Otto Vondrak
 
Posts: 19743
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:47 pm
Location: New York

Re: Put distances

Postby RussNelson » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:48 am

Tom Curtin wrote:There are no doubt all kinds of archeological finds along that bikeway if you concentrate on looking for them. I know there is a fully intact telegraph pole or two ---- crossarms and all --- north of Millwood

There are dozens of intact telegraph poles and hundreds if not thousands of intact concrete fenceposts, and at least two concrete mile markers, one of them damaged as you indicated.
User avatar
RussNelson
 
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:20 am
Location: Potsdam, NY

Postby RussNelson » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:05 pm

Otto Vondrak wrote:There was a third route through East View, the original 1880 route that used a long wooden trestle to cross the valley. This was replaced by the loop around the reservoir, which was then replaced by the 1930 relocation. There's a map in my book that shows the loop route and the relocated mainline, but I omitted the 1880 trestle route.

Hmmmmm.... So it's possible that it's either line, given the dates, but more likely to be the 1880 route.

What do you want an index of?

I want an index to answer these questions: Where is the Tarrytown Loop mentioned? Or the trestle?
And why would the book be online? :-)

As an alternative or even adjunct to an index. Not hard to keep it secure -- just ask for the Kth word from the Lth paragraph on page N. A book owner has that information literally at their fingertips. Or you could implement a search engine that simply reports the page numbers on which search results may be found.

The Saw Mill Parkway started construction in 1926. By 1930, it had reached Route 119 in Elmsford. Construction had only reached Chappaqua by 1940 when World War II halted any further progress. The Saw Mill Parkway was constructed along the Saw Mill River, as a sort of flood control project that never really worked right.

Ahhhh, the Wikipedia article listed the completion date, not the starting date. I've inserted your paragraph above into the Wikipedia article (with a reference to your words), but I'll back it out if you object.
User avatar
RussNelson
 
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:20 am
Location: Potsdam, NY

Re: Put distances

Postby Stillwell » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:00 pm

The ROW pictured in the aerial photo is part of the original 1880-1881 routing of the Put. Most of it is still visible to some degree. It veers from the current Put route in the Beaver Hill area. It starts approximately where the parking area is opposite the UPS warehouse in Elmsford. It runs through the parking lot for the buildings that house MK tire and the Poland Spring distributor and continues almost parallel, but at a slightly higher elevation, to the current Put routing until right after you cross under the power lines. The 1880 route veers west into the hillside between the Put and the Saw Mill Parkway. It appears that some of the original route was obliterated when the parkway was constructed. The ROW appears again on the western side (southbound lanes) of the Saw Mill where it goes through a rock cut that is just south of the location of the southern abutment of the trestle.

The there were a couple of reasons that the New York & Northern decided to change the routing:

1. Most passengers were scared to death of crossing over the wooden trestle. In fact during the inugural run people were wagering on whether or not the train was going to make it across the without the trestle collapsing.

2. The 1880 routing had a somewhat steeper grade than the 1881-1930 route. When a northbound train reached Elmsford/Beaver Hill a second engine had to be coupled to the train in order to make it to Pocantico. One engine didn't have enough power. When they reached the trestle the helper engine was uncoupled and made its way across. The rest of the train then crossed the trestle. The second engine was coupled again and the train made it's way to Pocanitco. The use of two engines per train was probably viewed as a very inefficient way to run things.

Tom Curtin wrote:Today, there's a milepost alongside the bikeway less than a mile north (compass north) of East View --- 21, or 22, I forget which. It is a concrete post, not the usual carved stone ones the "old" NYC used, and must have been put in for the 1930 reconstruction. It has a piece missing.

There are no doubt all kinds of archeological finds along that bikeway if you concentrate on looking for them. I know there is a fully intact telegraph pole or two ---- crossarms and all --- north of Millwood


There are other mile markers still in place. 6, 37, and 46 are still standing.
I've also spotted a couple of concrete whistle posts.

There are numerous telegraph poles along the line in various states of disrepair especially on the southern portion of the Put. A few still have numbers tacked to them. I've even spotted a glass insulator or two.

There are still a few small segments of intact trackage if you know where to look.

The ghost of the Put has many stories to tell if you're willing to listen and keep an eye peeled.

Jon
Stillwell
 

Re: Put distances

Postby RussNelson » Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:42 pm

Stillwell wrote:The 1880 route veers west into the hillside between the Put and the Saw Mill Parkway. It appears that some of the original route was obliterated when the parkway was constructed. The ROW appears again on the western side (southbound lanes) of the Saw Mill where it goes through a rock cut that is just south of the location of the southern abutment of the trestle.

Thanks for this confirmation, Jon! I think I've marked the location of the rock cut in this link to ACME Mapper
User avatar
RussNelson
 
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:20 am
Location: Potsdam, NY

Postby Otto Vondrak » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:52 pm

RussNelson wrote:
What do you want an index of?

I want an index to answer these questions: Where is the Tarrytown Loop mentioned? Or the trestle?


No problem. It's the big full-page "Tarrytown Loop" map on page 32! :-) Route relocation in 1930 is discussed on page 6. The trestle is not discussed and I summarized most of the Put's early history because Gallo and Kramer covered it so well in their 1981 "The Putnam Division: NYC's Bygone Route Through Westchester County. (Quadrant Press)." You can find this book around, it's been out of print for a while. Also includes a picture of the trestle in question.

If I can help you find anything else, please let me know.

-otto-
---------------------------
I do not own this web site, nor do I serve any administrative function. Please contact the Site Administrator for assistance. -omv
User avatar
Otto Vondrak
 
Posts: 19743
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:47 pm
Location: New York

Next

Return to New York Central

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests