Height of Green Line Catenary vs. Height of Commuter Rail

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Height of Green Line Catenary vs. Height of Commuter Rail

Postby Guilford Guy » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:25 pm

Does anyone know how high the catenary sits?
Since there is a switch between D Line and the Worcester Line, and then at Fenway there is that switch that goes off the D Line before the tunnel and heads over to the Worcester Line again. Would it be possibly to divert a commuter train over the D Line between Riverside and Fenway. This brings up the height issue. What is the height of the catenary compared to the height of and F40/MC or Kawasaki. I recall a picture of a Commuter Train in Riverside when the Worcester Main was flooded but I do not know if it actually continued along the D or just waited until the Flood was over and had passengers shuttled on the D between Riverside and Boston.
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Postby Ron Newman » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:40 pm

I'm pretty sure there is no longer a track connection between the D Line and the Boston & Albany mainline near Fenway. I don't think there's been a connection there since 1959!

Yes, a commuter train was brought into Riverside from the B&A during the flood, but it did not continue east on the D Line beyond Riverside. It went to Back Bay and South stations on the mainline.
Last edited by Ron Newman on Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby GP40MC 1116 » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:41 pm

This is what you are referring too I think Alex

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo ... y=jwhite07

Photo Courtesy: Jonathan White

Here is a picture I took in 2006 of the connection track from the Riverside Yard to the B&A Line. Unkown if it is still connected at the other end

Image
Last edited by GP40MC 1116 on Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Guilford Guy » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:48 pm

GP40MC 1116 wrote:This is what you are referring too I think Alex

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo ... y=jwhite07

Photo Courtesy: Jonathan White

Yes that would be it.
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Postby sery2831 » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:58 pm

The reason for the commuter trains operating into Riverside was because the Green Line was flooded at Kenmore. The CR ran a shuttle train from Riverside to South Station in the morning and reverse in the evening. They cut the overhead back so the train didn't come near it.
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Postby jwhite07 » Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:52 pm

I know that to get commuter rail trains as far as they did into Riverside as shown in my photo, some of the overhead wire in the yard had to be taken down because it would not clear the F40.

I don't have exact numbers in front of me, but to the best of my memory catenary height throughout the Green Line ranges from roughly 13' in the subway up closer to 18' or so above the street on Huntington Avenue, but typically somewhere in the 15'-16' range everywhere else.

An F40 is 15' 8" tall, and a bilevel car is 15' 6" tall, so in most cases you're not going to clear Green Line catenary comfortably, if at all.
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Postby -Garrett » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:52 pm

Wait,
Isn't there a picture around here somewhere of an MBCR locomotive amongst the LRVs at Riverside? Unless it was a hoax, but it was posted here on this forum somewhere.

Wasn't it?
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Postby jwhite07 » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:14 pm

Wait,
Isn't there a picture around here somewhere of an MBCR locomotive amongst the LRVs at Riverside? Unless it was a hoax, but it was posted here on this forum somewhere.

Wasn't it?


Ummm, yeah... click that link GP40MC 1116 posted for Guilford Guy above. That's the one you're thinking of, and it's no hoax!

As both sery2831 and I mentioned, the overhead wire was removed above the track the commuter train came in on because it was too low.
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Postby dbperry » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:58 am

slightly off topic....

The connection / switch between the B&A mainline and the Riverside line is back in service and has been for about 6 months. The CSX maintenance crew that has been working on the B&A doing tie replacement is using that switch area as a staging area, and storing both MOW equipment and Hi-Rail trucks on the Riverside branch. The fence gate has been open, and the equipment has been staged / stretched down the Riverside 'siding' for quite a distance....certainly under the catenary.

In the not so distant past, the 'connection' between the green line and the B&A was blocked by a fence gate, a large pile of stone on the track, and derailers. The switch has never been removed (at least in the last few years). I though they had even removed a section of track past the switch, but perhaps not.

The switch only connects Track 2 to the Riverside siding (it is a trailing switch for normal eastbound Track 2 B&A traffic). If you want to get on Track 1, you have to backtrack west to CP 11.

There is no switch on the B&A at the point where near Fenway / Yawkey where the Riverside branch 'rejoined' the B&A. There is a switch on the Riverside line, very close to the Fenway station, where a siding sets off under the Park Street bridge. I think this is the switch that Guilford Guy is referring to. However, the siding is only maybe 100 feet long - it ends under the Park Street overpass. Green Line MOW equipment can usually be found on this siding. From this siding to the B&A is approximately 3000 feet. There is no track along this alignment (or it has been paved over). I wonder if the MBTA even still owns that ROW (from the Miner Street Green Line tunnel portal to the B&A)?


See this map

Regards

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Postby GP40MC 1116 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:38 am

This shot from Google Maps shows the switch were it connects to the B&A. One can follow it from the Yard all the way to the switch to the line.


map here
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Postby TomNelligan » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:04 pm

dbperry wrote:From this siding to the B&A is approximately 3000 feet. There is no track along this alignment (or it has been paved over). I wonder if the MBTA even still owns that ROW (from the Miner Street Green Line tunnel portal to the B&A)?


And of course that former B&A right-of-way now runs through the middle of a Fenway Park parking lot that's been there for a very long time. Back in the 1970s the double track was still in place across the lot (in an unpaved grassy strip that game-goers had to walk over) because it was still being used to deliver boxcars to the Sears warehouse, which remained an active freight customer for a couple decades after the rest of the Highland Branch was sold to the MTA. Shortly after the freight service ended (late 70s/early 80s) the connection was finally broken.
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Postby sery2831 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:22 pm

The connection from CSX to the Riverside was probably restored when the tie job on the D line started. MBCR did the job and they probably brought the equipment in via that connection.
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Postby Ron Newman » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:36 pm

When that Sears siding was still active, though, I don't think it had a track connection to the D-Line (after 1959).
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Postby TomNelligan » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:56 pm

Ron Newman wrote:When that Sears siding was still active, though, I don't think it had a track connection to the D-Line (after 1959).


You are correct. I was referring to the connection between the Sears spur and the B&A mainline but I guess I could have been clearer on that.
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Re: Height of Green Line Catenary vs. Height of Commuter Rai

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:49 pm

Guilford Guy wrote:Does anyone know how high the catenary sits?
Since there is a switch between D Line and the Worcester Line, and then at Fenway there is that switch that goes off the D Line before the tunnel and heads over to the Worcester Line again. Would it be possibly to divert a commuter train over the D Line between Riverside and Fenway. This brings up the height issue. What is the height of the catenary compared to the height of and F40/MC or Kawasaki. I recall a picture of a Commuter Train in Riverside when the Worcester Main was flooded but I do not know if it actually continued along the D or just waited until the Flood was over and had passengers shuttled on the D between Riverside and Boston.


A CR train might clear the catenary, but it's close enough that they had to actually cut it during the '96 flood to get the locos into the yard. FRA regulations are extremely strict, to the point where even turning off the overhead power isn't enough. They also have to keep the tracks physically separate...not just fenced and blocked off. So they've had removable tracks to sever the lines. That one in particular seems a bit arbitrary since no loco could get through the switch, the fence, the blocks bolted to the tracks, the switch at the back of the yard, the switches in the yard...and then plow into a Type 8. But rules are rules.

dbperry wrote:The connection / switch between the B&A mainline and the Riverside line is back in service and has been for about 6 months. The CSX maintenance crew that has been working on the B&A doing tie replacement is using that switch area as a staging area, and storing both MOW equipment and Hi-Rail trucks on the Riverside branch. The fence gate has been open, and the equipment has been staged / stretched down the Riverside 'siding' for quite a distance....certainly under the catenary.


Might be an exemption for work equipment so long as the locos aren't using the track. Work equipment, including diesel-powered equipment, is used in the subway itself so the regulations probably don't extend to that.

Ron Newman wrote:When that Sears siding was still active, though, I don't think it had a track connection to the D-Line (after 1959).


Used to be multi-track to the mainline, with the Sears freight siding peeling off soon after the split from the mainline. The thru tracks were taken out for the portal construction. One track was left for the Sears freight siding that ran on a ROW across the parking lot next to Yawkey station, along the paved walkway to Fenway Park that runs between the D ROW and the Landmark Center, then split to double-track and deadended under the Park Drive overpass next to Fenway Station where the new D siding was just put in. The connection back to the Riverside Line was immediately severed in '59 when the trolley wire went up and the line jurisdictionally switched over to light rail. I imagine during conversion the siding connection was used to bring construction equipment onto the line, just as the Riverside connection was.
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