01700 UTDC Midlife Rebuild

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01700 UTDC Midlife Rebuild

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:17 pm

Saw on the NETransit vehicle inventory page that the UTDC 01700's on the Red Line are scheduled to go through their first midlife rebuild starting next year. This is the first I'd heard of this. Anybody know exactly what repairs/upgrades are on the docket for the cars?
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Postby octr202 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:34 pm

Not really, but I notice now that it's listed on the MBTA handout from the MPO meeting a few weeks ago as "already funded," so it should be happening. The description doesn't add anything that we don't know already on this board.
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Postby redline43 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:43 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but would it be possible to upgrade them to be trainlineable with the 01800s?
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Postby type 7 3704 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:13 pm

That would be expensive, involving replacing a lot of the control equipment and possibly modifying the propulsion equipment. There probably are enough 1700s to trainline with each other without problems even when the 1500/1600s get retired, unlike the 3700 Type 7s. There is no need for doing that, maybe until the silverbirds get retired, and the T probably can't afford to do so anyways.
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Postby RailBus63 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:40 pm

If Type 7's can be modified to trainline with Type 8's, it certainly seems possible to modify the 01700's to operate with the 01800's. How expensive it would be is another matter, although the Type 7 modification program didn't strike me as being outlandishly expensive when I saw the amount.
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Postby GP40MC 1116 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:58 pm

I would say in order to train line the 01700's to the 01800's the big thing would be more so on the actual "train line" parts.. what I man is the electronics, brakes, and other things that you would need to in a railroad term "MU" from the two train sets. With the Type 7/Type 8 modification program, seeing how the new T7's got the digital signs and automated stop announcements (ASA) like the Type 8's. believe that was more for convenience and also a "ADA" sort of thing to make them happy. In addition they got work on their couplers and the connections that run from train to train that makes "train-lining possible. I am not 100 % sure about what work was done to modify the Type 7's to the Type 8's.

This is probably a dumb question to ask, but currently, all 01500, 01600 and 01700 2 car pairs can modify with each other ? I don't think I have seen a pair of a cars such as for ex 01732/01532 paired together, it would be only be 01732/01733 and so forth. At this point the 01800s can only trainline with their own group is the only difference.
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Postby sery2831 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:03 am

The Red Line cars can only pair up with each other. The 01500s were originally single unit cars with cabs at both ends. So the cars have all the systems they need to function on their own. But the 01600s were built as pairs so one car has some components while the other car the rest. I am not sure when the 01500s were rebuilt that they made them into pairs or not. I believe the 01700s were originally built not sharing components but almost like the original 01500s. But I think they since have been made into pairs like the 01600s.
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Postby redline43 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:01 am

NETransit wrote:01500s and 01700s are self-contained units, but in practice are operated as pairs


Apparently the 01700s can run on their own, but only have single ended cabs. Is this why the non-cab end of an 01700 has red lights like the cab end, but no rollsign?
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Postby CRail » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:12 am

True, both the 1500's and 1700's have back up controllers. They can/could run singly, I'm not sure if this has been changed.
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Postby Gerry6309 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:25 am

All of the conventional series (01500, 01600 and 01700 are of similar electrical design. The 01500 series cars were originally complete single units allowing the limited use of 5 car trains on the South Shore Line as all stops between Park St. and Quincy Center were long enough to platform 5 cars. This was not done because of the Guard Law which required a guard for every two cars (or fraction thereof). When the law was changed in 1981, some 5 car trains were actually operated, but didn't help much because of heavy traffic to Harvard/Brattle, where only 4 cars could change ends. The MBTA waited until the platform extensions and Alewife extension were complete and then implemented six car trains.

The 01600s were built as married pairs with one car carrying the compressor and air tanks while the other the MG set and batteries. They must be towed when separated. The 01700s were built as single units, but are single ended. They are normally coupled as back to back pairs, but can be operated in other configurations. The hostling controls on the rear ends are limited to simple movements. When the 01500s got their mid-life rehab, -they were made operationally identical to the 01700s, but retained their Bend headlights and rollsigns. Since then they have operated in even-odd pairs, like the 1700s, but don't have to.
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Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:39 am

RailBus63 wrote:If Type 7's can be modified to trainline with Type 8's, it certainly seems possible to modify the 01700's to operate with the 01800's. How expensive it would be is another matter, although the Type 7 modification program didn't strike me as being outlandishly expensive when I saw the amount.


Different because of the trolleys vs. heavy-rail difference. Trolleys are more self-contained because they're all designed as single cars...the parts that have to "talk" to each other are limited. All Red Line cars are run as pairs (even the 01500's and 01700's, which aren't married like the 01600's...you can attach a single to a consist if needed, but I don't think you can operate a 1-car train with enough functionality to suit revenue service). So it's a lot more complex to get the systems to agree with each other, especially with ATO in the picture. And the 01800's are a very different beast from the 3 compatible fleets so it's major work to translate signals so that the cars operate glitch-free.

Basically they have no reason to do it. There's 58 01700's, enough for 9 six-car consists and a spare four-car. That's more than enough for a standalone fleet once the 01500/01600's get retired. Doubly so because the 01900's will very likely be built to trainline with the 01800's giving the Red Line a luxury it's never had of approximately 150-175 trainlineable cars anyway. Doing that much brain surgery to the 01700's simply isn't necessary.
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Postby Robert Paniagua » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:47 pm

And don't forget the braking systems difference either. 01700s (as well as the 15-600s) have SMEE braking and 01800s have dynamic braking, and I know SMEE and Dynamic also don't trainline with each other.
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Postby Gerry6309 » Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:36 pm

01800s have dynamic braking


Actually 1500s, 1600s and 1700s have dynamic braking, 1800s have regenerative braking. The difference is that the current generated by the motors in the 1800s is pumped back into the third rail to be used elsewhere, while the current generated in the other cars is dissapated in resistors under the car. The two systems are operationally compatible. The differences lie in the control system, braking rates in the older cars are varied by changing the bias on the limit relay, which is controlled by the voltage on a train line wire. (Commonly these are 1 Power, 2 Accellerate, 3 Parrallel, 4 Forward, 5 Reverse, 6 Rate, 7 Reset - Hence the control cut-out is called a 7 point switch) In the 1800s the braking (all modes) are controlled by a digital signal - also carried on a train line wire. The two control systems are totally incompatible! The 1800s dont respond to simple on-offs or varying voltages and the other cars are ANALOG period! The 01800s may have air pressure carried through coupler hoses, but they don't respond to changes in pressure through relay valves. The braking is controlled through the P-wire only. BTW: SMEE doesn't require dynamic braking, the 1924 East Boston cars were converted to SMEE braking, but used air brakes only. SMEE stands for: Straight air, Motorman's valve, Electric control with Emergency features. The electric portion essentially measures the air pressure on the first car and matches it on the others.

The technology used in the older cars is fairly old, though low voltage circuitry and variable rates have been added since the early days of MU around 1900. Dynamic braking is triggered by loss of the power signal, and brake and accelleration rates increase as voltage on the rate wire drops. In coasting the rate is minimized, so the control follows the speed of the car. The ATO on the Red and Orange Lines simply turns these signals on and off based on the speed of the car. That's why the application is so heavy when the cars go from a 40 code to a 25 code and so forth.

To return to the original subject, the Type 7s and 8s both used similar digital control systems, so the main issue in making them compatible was adjusting rates to match and adding some multiplexed signals for the signs and ASA system to the Type 7. The AC or DC motors are operationally compatible, just don't try to put a Type 8 motor under a Type 7.
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Postby StevieC48 » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:12 pm

From what I found out from JB is that the T will look into upgrading the propulsion to A/C if it is cost effective.
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Postby Epsilon » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:36 pm

I wonder if the 01700s will get electronic rollsigns... the types of electronic signs that the T has used on the 01800s and the Green Line don't look like they'd fit in the small red line rollsign spot, though.
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