The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby Riverduckexpress » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:34 pm

zhaos wrote:A very important expose on high construction costs was published by the Times this week. Front page article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyre ... .html?_r=0

I feel like the public is helpless to deal with the issues highlighted, which is really unfortunate.


An accountant discovered the discrepancy while reviewing the budget for new train platforms under Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan.

The budget showed that 900 workers were being paid to dig caverns for the platforms as part of a 3.5-mile tunnel connecting the historic station to the Long Island Rail Road. But the accountant could only identify about 700 jobs that needed to be done, according to three project supervisors. Officials could not find any reason for the other 200 people to be there.

The discovery, which occurred in 2010 and was not disclosed to the public, illustrates one of the main issues that has helped lead to the increasing delays now tormenting millions of subway riders every day: The leaders entrusted to expand New York’s regional transit network have paid the highest construction costs in the world, spending billions of dollars that could have been used to fix existing subway tunnels, tracks, trains and signals.
....
For years, The Times found, public officials have stood by as a small group of politically connected labor unions, construction companies and consulting firms have amassed large profits.

Trade unions, which have closely aligned themselves with Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo and other politicians, have secured deals requiring underground construction work to be staffed by as many as four times more laborers than elsewhere in the world, documents show.

Construction companies, which have given millions of dollars in campaign donations in recent years, have increased their projected costs by up to 50 percent when bidding for work from the M.T.A., contractors say.
...
At the heart of the issue is the obscure way that construction costs are set in New York. Worker wages and labor conditions are determined through negotiations between the unions and the companies, none of whom have any incentive to control costs. The transit authority has made no attempt to intervene to contain the spending.
...
Asked about The Times’s findings, union leaders and construction executives insisted that no money had been wasted. They said tunneling was difficult and dangerous work that must be well funded.
...
In Paris, which has famously powerful unions, the review found the lower costs were the result of efficient staffing, fierce vendor competition and scant use of consultants.
...
In New York, “underground construction employs approximately four times the number of personnel as in similar jobs in Asia, Australia, or Europe,” according to an internal report by Arup, a consulting firm that worked on the Second Avenue subway and many similar projects around the world.

That ratio does not include people who get lost in the sea of workers and get paid even though they have no apparent responsibility, as happened on East Side Access. The construction company running that project declined to comment.
...
Several contractors said the unions are able to maintain the deals because everybody knows they are politically powerful. The unions working on M.T.A. projects have donated more than $1 million combined to Mr. Cuomo during his administration, records show.
...
The critics pointed to several unusual provisions in the labor agreements. One part of Local 147’s deal entitles the union to $450,000 for each tunnel-boring machine used. That is to make up for job losses from “technological advancement,” even though the equipment has been standard for decades.


Surprised but also not surprised that nobody replied to this. I want to make very clear that I am certainly not against workers getting fairly compensated for dangerous, laborious work. I am against money being spent on blatant featherbedding.

Look at the 200 phantom workers. These numbers are just spitballing, but let's assume each one was paid $1,000 a day for an 8-hour shift (including salary and benefits) times 250 weekdays times 200 workers. That's some $50 million each year, for 3 years or so, being spent on people who were not doing any work on this project. I want to repeat, these 200 people were not doing any work at all. Imagine that money going towards electrifying or double-tracking the Port Jefferson Branch. Upgrading the Greenport branch to allow for more service than the scraps it gets now. Any pipe dream project you can think of. None of those will happen at any reasonable pace or cost as long as we have no real oversight on projects like this. And I want to emphasize again that I am not against unions/safety and just compensation. But this is beyond either of those things, this is outright corruption, in spirit if not legally. And this is just the most egregious thing in the exposé.
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby MNCRR9000 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:09 pm

https://www.newsday.com/long-island/tra ... 1.17787714

ADMIN NOTE: edited to provide only brief, fair-use quote. Usually, depending on source length, this will be no more than 3 paragraphs. No harm, no foul! Appreciate keeping up to date...

By Alfonso A. Castillo
alfonso.castillo@newsday.com @alfonsoreports
Updated April 1, 2018 5:51 PM

The MTA’s delay-plagued East Side Access megaproject to link the LIRR to Grand Central Terminal has encountered yet another snag, as a plan to transition to a new signal system is expected to take longer than originally scheduled, officials said.

MTA Chief Development Officer Janno Lieber has advised the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s LIRR Committee that the East Side Access project team is “struggling with the news” from the LIRR’s signal workers that it will take longer than anticipated to test a new state-of-the art signal system being installed at the busy Harold Interlocking train junction in Queens. The testing was set to take place over this spring and be completed by May.

The impact, if any, of the snag on the completion of the overall project — now set for the end of 2022 — is not known; Lieber said the agency is looking into how to keep things on track.
...
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby SRich » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:37 pm

The LIRR signalling system is still CCS + ACSES II? Why is that a problem then?
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:43 pm

LIRR has 5 aspect cab signal with different speeds for Cab signal codes.
MN, NJT and Amtrak and all other east coast railroads, uses same system NYNH&Hrr and PRR used, 4 aspects.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby SRich » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:47 pm

So NY Penn use an hybrid between PRR and LIRR?
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:05 pm

from Harold to NYP they run on PRR aspects not sure what speeds are associated with LIRR Cab signal vs PRR
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby SRich » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:59 am

http://longisland.news12.com/story/3795 ... ss-project

Costs climb for MTA's East Side Access project

HICKSVILLE -
The price tag for the MTA's East Side Access project to link the LIRR to Grand Central Terminal just got about $1 billion more expensive.
The project aims to connect the commuter rail to Grand Central Station.
The MTA blames it on Amtrak, saying it didn't provide needed labor at a work site in Queens, which led to skyrocketing costs.

MORE: Transportation Coverage

The project is now slated to cost about $11.2 billion, and according to Newsday, almost two and a half times more than original estimates.
It was first proposed in the late-1990s, and it's scheduled for completion in 2022.
Once the project is complete, it's expected to serve 162,000 customers daily and save riders up to 40 minutes on their commute.


Pffff
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby DutchRailnut » Fri May 11, 2018 7:22 pm

yeah if project exceeds time , it will cost more in labor, go figure.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby Dump The Air » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:42 pm

this goomba-ass state never ceases to amaze me.
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby Head-end View » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:25 pm

Well, not to defend anyone's incompetence; New York is a very complicated place to get any large scale public works project done. Combine that with the usual politics and ineptitude and here we are. :(

It took about fourteen years to build five miles of Cross Bronx Expwy. and about thirty years for the Brooklyn-Queens Expwy to be completed so East Side Access is about par.
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby BuddR32 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:33 am

DutchRailnut wrote:LIRR has 5 aspect cab signal with different speeds for Cab signal codes.
MN, NJT and Amtrak and all other east coast railroads, uses same system NYNH&Hrr and PRR used, 4 aspects.


LI used to be six aspects, but a zero code and 15 code had the same restriction, so now theres only 5 codes.

It gets better, when East Side Access opens, LIRR will have NINE aspects of cab signalling, yes nine.
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby rr503 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:59 pm

Why does ESA mean more aspects? Are there weird speed restrictions in those tunnels?
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby BuddR32 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:42 am

That I don't know, but the new M7 Aspect Displays have 9 aspects, which we're told are for when ESA goes on-line.
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby ExCon90 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:31 pm

Amtrak's ACSES has 9 aspects, but the additional ones are for high-speed divergences (like 80 mph +). Maybe it's for compatibility, but I don't see much opportunity for 80-mph turnouts in connection with ESA. And the ACSES circuits are compatible with the traditional 4-aspect system, so that for example SEPTA and NJT can operate on Amtrak with the same cab-signal equipment they've had all along. (I've been away from the business for quite a while -- maybe someone currently involved can expand on this.)
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Postby Train60 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:45 pm

If you know little about the project and you want to know a lot this is the video for you. Just released by the MTA. They clearly spend some serious dollars making this 8-minute showcase piece.

MTA LIRR East Side Access Update – September 2018
https://youtu.be/lMzDoyQlPQ4

Be sure to watch in high-def. with 1080p set
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