Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby lvrr325 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:31 am

I actually heard where some of the things are going but I neglected to ask if it was sharable. In any case it seemed like good news to me.
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby nydepot » Tue May 15, 2018 11:27 am

If you weren't told not to share, then you can.

lvrr325 wrote:I actually heard where some of the things are going but I neglected to ask if it was sharable. In any case it seemed like good news to me.
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby ANRP2 » Wed May 16, 2018 9:34 am

lvrr325 wrote:I actually heard where some of the things are going but I neglected to ask if it was sharable. In any case it seemed like good news to me.


Can you share now?
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby lvrr325 » Wed May 16, 2018 9:01 pm

My source posts here, I'll let him decide how to handle it.
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby The Man » Fri May 18, 2018 11:06 pm

The only one I’m willing to say (I don’t want to upset the guys signing the checks) is that ALCO #5 is going to CNY NRHS, it’s a matter of the paperwork at this point. As for the E-8’s, they are being prepped to move to another railroad along with one or more BL-2, the passenger cars are being flung to any operation that needs or can use them. Other than that, when they get there it will be known. I will say that nothing is going to get cut up or left behind. I personally know IPH is trying to make sure some things are right when and if they go. This is why ALCO #5 was sent to CNY, IPH was concerned with it leaving NY. I think that was a great thing for them to do and shows the concern for historical value. They are working hard to make sure things are right in NY but it’s really a hard fight these days.

Your off the hook LVRR325, and I moved your truck today.

JJ-
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby Dick H » Tue May 22, 2018 8:37 pm

From the poststar.com
https://poststar.com/news/local/pennsyl ... 0ba5a.html

Pennsylvania railroad operator offers help on Warren County lineA railroad operator in Pennsylvania believes he can help turn around Warren County’s rail line. Robert Lowe, who owns Rail Holdings Inc. in south-central Pennsylvania, said he reached out to Warren County officials in recent days after reading about the demise of Saratoga & North Creek Railway. The railway has operated on the rail line owned by the county and town of Corinth for seven years, but announced in March that it was shutting down. Lowe’s overture was mentioned at a public Board of Supervisors meeting on Monday, and he discussed the interest in a phone conversation with a reporter Tuesday.


On another list, it is reported that County officials have not even acknowledged the correspondence for the PA company.
Last edited by Otto Vondrak on Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added fair use quote
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby backroadrails » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:50 pm

I noticed today that the SNC is selling a 2003 Chevy highrail and their material handling truck.
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby lvrr325 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:23 am

They're closing the operation, so it's a matter of what things are worth the expense to ship to another of their properties and what ones would be sold right there.
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby D.Carleton » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:44 pm

https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Denver-firm-wants-to-buy-operate-rail-line-to-13166841.php
The rail line from North Creek to Tahawus that drew officials' ire when owner Iowa Pacific Holdings began storing empty oil tank cars on it could have a new owner. Denver-based Omnitrax late last week confirmed it wants to buy the rail line, as well as buying or leasing the rest of the corridor from North Creek south to Saratoga Springs, from the local government entities that now own it.



Best of luck with that.
Last edited by Otto Vondrak on Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby CPSmith » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:23 pm

Indeed. The DEC has been busy: (pdfs too big to attach)

https://www.stb.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7 ... enDocument

https://www.stb.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7 ... enDocument

One of the more interesting comments is "Abandonment of the Line will advance the public interest by neutralizing a threat to the Preserve without
harming the national rail network."

However, the "threat" is never identified. In today's vernacular, I believe that's a "fail".
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby BandA » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:19 pm

Does an "adverse abandonment" constitute a taking by eminent domain? It should.
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby CPSmith » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:10 pm

It does not. Railroads file abandonment proceedings with the STB all the time. If you go the STB website, you'll see plenty of examples. If a third party wants a railroad to abandon a line, they file an application for "adverse abandonment". It's the same process with the same criteria, just someone other than the RR wants it gone. If you're interested in the process, a good example (lots of filings and it hasn't been fully resolved yet) is Hartwell First United Methodist Church. Just do a search on the STB site. Start at the beginning. The church wanted to expand its parking lot, and to do so, it had to rip up track buried in the grass. The RR wants to keep it, the church wants it gone.
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby BandA » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:36 pm

The state is filing for adverse abandonment against the SNC owned track, but not the state / county / town owned track, right? Seems discriminatory. If you like your ROW, you can keep your ROW. But you can't run a train on it! Sounds like a 90% reduction in value, and a 99% reduction in value of the mine property. It's like if you owned a factory and the town changed the zoning to farmland only & didn't compensate you.

Presumably, IP is fighting for survival & doesn't have money/mindshare to contest this right now. So perfect timing by the state!
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby CPSmith » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:26 pm

No, I think you're off track a little (no pun intended). As was previously discussed in the CMRR forum, ownership and operating rights are two entirely different subjects. If you go back to the beginning of 246115, you will find this statement:

"Under the authority of 49 U.S.C. § 10903 and 49 C.F.R. part 1152, DEC will file an application for adverse abandonment of the authority of the Saratoga and North Creek Railway (SNCR) to operate over a rail line commonly known as the Sanford Lake Branch or the Tahawus Line (the Line), between milepost NC 0.0 at North Creek, New York and the Line’s terminus near the Tahawus Mine at milepost NC 29.71.1"

The STB granted operating authority over the line to SNCR some years ago. I suspect they will not hesitate to grant authority to a successor operator (Omnitrax, Watco, etc.) in the near future, after this stuff is cleaned up. So my guess is the STB will find against the DEC, then it will go to court, and the court will uphold the STB decision.
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Re: Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion

Postby BandA » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:36 pm

What I was attempting to say is that I think, if this adverse abandonment goes through, railroad use of the S&NC ROW becomes a prohibited use because Forever Wild. Then the ROW is essentially worthless & the government can buy it from the distressed IP for pennies on the dollar.
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