Amazon and New T Stuff

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Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby Teamdriver » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:09 am

Amazon HQ2: Boston prepped to pony up big-time on its Suffolk Downs bet

Boston’s Amazon HQ2 bid calls for nearly $1 billion in state and federal transportation improvements to make Suffolk Downs a suitable site for the massive campus — and promises to spend $75 million from development fees to bolster an already strained local housing market to accommodate 50,000 workers.

In the 214-page bid submitted last night, Boston says it will push the state to extend the Blue Line to Park Street, improve Route 1A, and add a commuter rail station, extend the Silver Line and add ferry service to Suffolk Downs. Those projects would require an estimated $812 million in state and possibly federal money.

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/bu ... folk_downs

More at : Read Boston’s full bid to Amazon on HQ2

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/1 ... story.html

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/201 ... story.html
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby Bramdeisroberts » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:29 am

What the heck is extending the Blue Line to Park supposed to accomplish that the Charles/MGH extension that should be operational today wouldn't accomplish for a fraction of the cost of tunneling beneath the Red AND Green lines to build a "Park Street Under-Under" would end up costing?

Charles/MGH under also makes it easier to extend the Blue Line either to Beacon Yards/West Station via Kendall and a cut-and-cover under the GJ, OR to Kenmore/Yawkey and/or Longwood by way of tunneling under Storrow/The Fens/Beacon St/Brookline Ave, options that become a lot more expensive if not impossible when you're starting from Park Street instead.
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby deathtopumpkins » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:30 am

Blue line to Park!?

Also, here's a direct link to the document: https://www.scribd.com/document/3621127 ... Amazon-Bid

The transit maps included in that are horrendous... and the one on Page 66 already mislabels Gov't Ctr as Park. We already knew the Walsh Administration doesn't particularly care about public transit but they could at least try...
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby csor2010 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:25 am

Before we get too far down the rabbit hole...

The bid (at least as it appears on Scribd) does mislabel GC as Park on one of its maps (and omits the GC Green-Blue connection on the other), but on both maps the connector is drawn between Bowdoin and Charles/MGH. I also couldn't find any reference to Park Street as the BL terminus in the bid document.
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby rethcir » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:35 pm

I think NSRL would have to happen to allow this.

There's no way someone from Wellesley or Weston, making well over 6 figures, wants to do the commuter rail to red line to blue line connection.
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby ceo » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:09 pm

Bramdeisroberts wrote:Charles/MGH under also makes it easier to extend the Blue Line either to Beacon Yards/West Station via Kendall and a cut-and-cover under the GJ

How would that even work? You'd have to run a TBM under the Charles, probably not directly under the bridge, and then tuck in under the Red Line at the incline to avoid the building foundations. Then you have to excavate a new station directly under Kendall. Then you have to somehow turn onto the GJ alignment under the MIT Brain and Cognitive Sciences Center, which probably has piles driven to bedrock (likewise the surrounding buildings) so you have to be right on the GJ alignment as it crosses the sidewalk. I don't think it's physically possible, never mind how ridiculously expensive it'd be.
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby StefanW » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:34 pm

It would be better IMHO if it were a Suffolk Downs to Assembly ferry instead (or in addition), since there's tons of people north of Boston who would probably like to be able to get to work at the casino without having to go all the way in to change at State. Unless / until there's a casino stop built on the Eastern Route (Rockburyport line) the casino workforce is not going to be able to get there easily. (Walking from Sullivan in winter? Yuck!) Of course I'm assuming there will be the ferry across the river to Assembly that Wynn promised, if I recall correct.

That being said, it would be really bad for traffic on Route 99 to have the drawbridge openings for the ferry from Suffolk Downs to Assembly. The map in the proposal shows the ferry from Suffolk Downs to North Station, but it wouldn't really be to North Station anyway - unless the North Washington drawbridge gets spinning again (not likely, and another traffic mess) or they use some ferry boat short enough to scoot under the bridge. Therefore the ferry would most likely be docking EAST of North Washington Street, at the dock on Commercial across from Hull Street. That's hardly convenient to get to North Station! Would that really be better than going Blue to Green or Blue to Orange to get to North Station? I don't think so.

One more thing about the ferry... coming down Chelsea Creek is almost certainly going to require the Chelsea Street and Meridian Street drawbridges to open... and the new Silver Line extension is going over Chelsea Street so introducing ferry service to Suffolk Downs is almost certainly going to negatively impact the brand new Silver Line! (Again I doubt a ferry short enough to scoot under would be used, but I could be wrong.)
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby StefanW » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:52 pm

An even better option than the ferry, I believe...

Since the RoW from the bypass road / Silver Line / Curtis Street area north is mostly unencumbered (except a little bit by that damn self-storage building) it would be far better to branch the Silver Line off at Curtis St. and run up to Suffolk Downs then to get a ferry going. If the Silver Line went further northeast up the RoW it could hook southeast right before the tank farm and presto, you're at Suffolk Downs.

Getting the Silver Line across Route 1A "at grade" would be insane, but since a 1A flyover to handle the Boardman Street nightmare has already been discussed for years that would all work out! Put 1A up and over, Silver Line ducking under (just like it's doing closer to the Airport station) and you kill two birds with one stone.

OK a ferry to/from Suffolk Downs could be basically started tomorrow (euphemistically) but in the long term a Silver Line branch to Revere would pay off.
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby StefanW » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:28 pm

rethcir wrote:I think NSRL would have to happen to allow this.

There's no way someone from Wellesley or Weston, making well over 6 figures, wants to do the commuter rail to red line to blue line connection.


I agree NSRL is a must (in general) but a short-term fix could be a ferry from Rowes Wharf (not too far from South Station) to Suffolk Downs. After that, extend the Silver Line to Suffolk Downs to make Providence (or Worcester) to Revere a one-change trip! (or do we call that a "two-seat ride"?)

It's too bad the traffic around Orient Heights is so bad because a ferry from Rowes Wharf / Boston could maybe dock at Bayswater Street or where Saratoga Street crosses the inlet... but a shuttle bus from a ferry terminal there to make the last mile to Suffolk Downs? Forget about it with all the street congestion.

A perfect setup for Amazon in Revere and workers south & west would be: North-South Rail Link train to connect to Blue Line at either Lynn or some connection around Wonderland. (That's if the NSRL doesn't get the "central station" to connect with the Blue Line.) Of course in a dreamland situation there would also be an Eastern Route branch south of Railroad Ave. in Revere (like my Silver Line extension idea) so you could run DMUs from Suffolk Downs past the tank farm and right into Boston, with a stop at the casino.
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby Bramdeisroberts » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:48 pm

ceo wrote:
Bramdeisroberts wrote:Charles/MGH under also makes it easier to extend the Blue Line either to Beacon Yards/West Station via Kendall and a cut-and-cover under the GJ

How would that even work? You'd have to run a TBM under the Charles, probably not directly under the bridge, and then tuck in under the Red Line at the incline to avoid the building foundations. Then you have to excavate a new station directly under Kendall. Then you have to somehow turn onto the GJ alignment under the MIT Brain and Cognitive Sciences Center, which probably has piles driven to bedrock (likewise the surrounding buildings) so you have to be right on the GJ alignment as it crosses the sidewalk. I don't think it's physically possible, never mind how ridiculously expensive it'd be.


Basically what you said. Charles MGH Under will already more or less have to straddle the existing station, whether for the station itself or for Alewife-style storage sidings, and the only question then is where you want the bores to go from there.

A pair of bored tunnels straddling the Longfellow only to dive under Kendall and hang a left (which can be tight due to the Blue Line rolling stock's turning radius) to travel down either the GJ or Vassar street to West Station would be an option. It'd be expensive, but thanks to the Blue Line's relatively tiny loading gauge, it's the line that most easily lends itself to this sort of London Underground-style route planning.
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:26 am

ceo wrote:
Bramdeisroberts wrote:Charles/MGH under also makes it easier to extend the Blue Line either to Beacon Yards/West Station via Kendall and a cut-and-cover under the GJ

How would that even work? You'd have to run a TBM under the Charles, probably not directly under the bridge, and then tuck in under the Red Line at the incline to avoid the building foundations. Then you have to excavate a new station directly under Kendall. Then you have to somehow turn onto the GJ alignment under the MIT Brain and Cognitive Sciences Center, which probably has piles driven to bedrock (likewise the surrounding buildings) so you have to be right on the GJ alignment as it crosses the sidewalk. I don't think it's physically possible, never mind how ridiculously expensive it'd be.


See a rough render here from MassDOT on how Red-Blue is laid out relative to the surface: https://www.massdot.state.ma.us/Portals ... pdf#page=2

The platform is a giant wedge spreading wide around the Red Line viaduct abutments with single egress popping up to street + Red level in the lower-lobby 'bulge' behind the Charlie gates where the flower vendors currently set up. And that's because the Blue level is at relatively shallow depth at this point when it hits the bottom of the hill under Cambridge St., so whether there's any deeper-bore segments between Joy St. and Union Pl. it is a cut-and-cover job once it's in Charles Circle-proper. The tail tracks spread around the wedge and terminate on the CVS and ex-Charles Jail/Hotel sides of the circle. Because of the way they spread out it is theoretically possible to expand blue east OR west (but not both) cut-and-cover underneath the Storrow/Embankment Rd. ramps. They would straight-on continue the one tail track that angles in the chosen direction, then wrap around the other tail track around in a half-loop behind the station clear of the Red viaduct abutments to get on-alignment. Once on-trajectory, they'd transition into whatever tunnel depth is appropriate for the given east or west extension's construction (we discussed this recently in another thread about the Kenmore/"Riverbank II" extension concept).

So while going anywhere past Charles is highly unlikely in our lifetimes, the extension does provision relatively clean integrity-of-concept for future east or west options at the 100-year level. The only thing you won't be able to do is plow straight under the Charles into Cambridge because it's not enough running room between the shallow level of the station and the deeper level of the riverbank to change tunneling depths for an underwater bore. But doubling-up Red capacity into Cambridge serves far and away the LEAST necessary 100-year consideration from this spot; you'd find more than enough impetus to greenlight an under-Storrow extension west or east decades before finding the demand tipping point for a redundant bore into Kendall.
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby Arlington » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:55 pm

And if the Blue Line gets to MGH anyone going to Greater MIT/Kendall will have good walk/Hubway/shuttle options across the rebuilt Longfellow Br that would entice people to not ride the Red just for one stop.
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby StefanW » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:37 pm

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:See a rough render here from MassDOT on how Red-Blue is laid out relative to the surface: https://www.massdot.state.ma.us/Portals ... pdf#page=2


Sorry for the duplicate post (I just dropped this into the Red/Blue topic) but for more/better diagrams check out:
http://archives.lib.state.ma.us/bitstream/handle/2452/69131/ocn689058267-ExecutiveSummary.pdf#page=22
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby parovoz » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:28 pm

Why are the tail tracks needed, anyway? What is their intended purpose?
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Re: Amazon and New T Stuff

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:45 pm

Train storage. Can't start service for the day or surge it on shift changes without a train supply on the west end. And there's no other place inbound of Orient Heights to stuff a disabled train, so service would get knocked out nearly line-wide if you had to clear the line to escort a crippled consist back to OH.

Bowdoin has tail tracks behind the loop used for the same exact purpose today: overnight storage for the next morning's start-of-service, shift-change storage, and a pocket for OOS trains until there's a clear shot to deadhead to OH. The Charles Circle tail tracks merely replicate what gets displaced when Bowdoin's tail tracks get claimed for the new mainline extension.
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