Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby deathtopumpkins » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:15 am

octr202 wrote:Exactly. The vast majority of riders see only their system, so they (probably fortunately) don't know what they're missing. I wish I'd had more time recently to ride MARC's K-cars, but one trip this summer was a pleasant surprise. I was making an Amtrak connection and so I had luggage. I was worried when the train was all double-deckers, but the cars had much more seating on the end "mezzanine" level than our cars do, and frankly were far more comfortable than any seats the MBTA uses. The end-level seats were the same high-back "semi-bucket" seats which a lot of commuter rail operators are using. There was a good amount of space for folks who have luggage, strollers, or mobility challenges to be able to ride in normal seats, not sideways jumpseats like our cars.

Conversely, I've also been on SEPTA and MN in the past year (Silverliner IV's and V's, and M-7's, respectively), and while nice, I did find the seating there less comfortable than most of what the MBTA runs. That said, much of those systems operates with a level of service that is significantly better than what we're offered here in regards to frequency. SEPTA's fares, in particular, are a good deal less than MBTA commuter rail.

Passenger amenities can't be the only driving factor, but at some point the MBTA needs to decide which aspects of the commuting experience it wants to embrace for the commuter rail system. Right now we're stuck with a combination of high fares, low frequency, long travel times, and mediocre equipment. It may be the best we can manage right now, but it's not encouraging in the long run.


+1!

Sure, switching to 2x2 seating on new car purchases would cost the MBTA more per-seat, but if riders are expected to shell out up to $12.50 one way, or $400/month, and be on trains for up to 90 minutes, I think a little more comfort is warranted.

3x2 seating is acceptable when trains are 10 minutes apart and only cost $5, or you'll only be on board for 20-30 minutes.
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby leviramsey » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:50 am

The major reason SEPTA has lower fares and higher frequency (all while having a markedly better farebox recovery than the MBTA) is the fact that SEPTA's lines are much shorter than the T's: a decent number of the lines if laid out from Boston would barely or not even clear 128, and only a couple would make it anywhere near 495.
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby octr202 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:49 am

Exactly - a big chunk of SEPTA's network is a very different beast. Lines like the Needham and Fairmont lines are much more of the style of their operation. But don't discount the longer rides to places like either Trenton, Doylestown, Thorndale or Newark. And yes, trying to compare operating practices and farebox recovery is almost impossible between the two systems

Also worth noting that the Silverliner V's were originally designed to be all 3x2 but rider and advocacy organization pushback caused SEPTA to do the compromise plan of partial 2x2. I didn't seem to sense any of that level of attention from the public to equipment design on the MBTA.
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby dbperry » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:39 pm

dbperry wrote:Coach 835 joins the "Rotem shake" club with 2 different separate reports:

https://twitter.com/MunkinArts/status/7 ... 9793465345

https://twitter.com/the_eskimo_spy/stat ... 5356215296


If 835 got a fix, then it didn't work.
https://twitter.com/Gritchell/status/777982955864162304

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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:46 am

On 802 right now...add to the list. I have never been on a car that vibrates this much at full cruising speed. As hard to hold my phone as type on it!
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby BandA » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:21 am

Is the vibration the cause of damage or is damage the cause of vibration?
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:30 am

BandA wrote:Is the vibration the cause of damage or is damage the cause of vibration?


Let vibrations like that continue unabated for 10 years and you're definitely going to see pieces of plastic shaking loose and banks of lights going out from loose connections. Pressure vs. time.

Put it this way: the vibrations didn't feel like a malfunction or flat wheels. No death rattles. And it wasn't the shaking-braking and brake squealing that are a whole other separate and more acutely annoying issue with the Brokems. This felt like the car was "singing" some sort of note through its whole body ...and through the bodies of everyone sitting in it. Like that was the car's natural frequency at proper functioning, and that frequency was never damped out during design. And maybe these X other Rotem trailers have the same reported 'singing' problem and these Y other Rotem trailers don't...because each car is making a slightly different note there's no one-size-fits-all damping fix to neutralize it all across the whole fleet. So we get some cars that 'sing' a little, some that 'sing' a lot, and some that are properly silent. And probably have that be a crapshoot across their whole lives.

I mean...it was annoying to sit through on Wi-fi because I could feel me own fingertips shaking from 802's whole 'note'. But you'd acclimate to it until you were momentarily reminded at every station stop that it was no longer there. And then REALLY, REALLY reminded on the return trip in a 72x non-rebuild how silky-smooth the ride was on exactly the same rails.


These things are going to be dumptrucks-o'-fun to ride when they're 12 years into their 'singing' careers. I can hardly wait. :(
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby BandA » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:30 pm

I know the trucks are of a different design, but are we headed into Silverliner V breakage five years from now?
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby RenegadeMonster » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:16 pm

It's been listed for awhile that the MBTA is exploring the possibility to purchase 60-75 more Rotems.

What is the possibility of this actually happening?
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby Backshophoss » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:06 pm

It's unknown if the option is still available,or has expired. Might have been better off with a 2nd gen K car order.
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby MBTA F40PH-2C 1050 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:43 pm

not going to happen, too many ongoing issues with the current Rotem fleet
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby RenegadeMonster » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:34 am

If it doesn't happen.

Will we likely see a purchase of some other bi-level cars within the next 5 to 10 years? Or will be limited by the amount of bi-levels currently active with no plans to add any more to the fleet anytime soon?
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby nomis » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:49 am

Just watch out for the semi-refined CRRC Septic Bi-Level "Bomb. MLV Clone", with 2x2 seating and less headroom than what your used to. Just like Budd said "Take 'em or leave 'em". It's such a pity Bombardier wasn't picked for Septa's run of 45 MLV cars. Reopening the tried-and-true NJT-AMT-MARC tooling would of made too much sense for a nearly identical MLV fleet traveling from Mass to DC.
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby MBTA F40PH-2C 1050 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:18 pm

Hopefully with this new study of the CR and its operations that was just launched, CR study they will see that a new order of cars should be done, or at least, start be in the works in order to be delivered in the next 7 years
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Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby RenegadeMonster » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:37 pm

I hope the study also listens to peoples complaints about squeezing 3 people into a seat.

This morning on the train, in the double decker each 3 person seat had 2 people. Then people were standing. Not a single person wanted to squeeze in. The conductor while walking through collecting tickets with a loud firm voice kept saying "there are plenty of seats guys, make them slide in" and "Guys, these seats are meant for to 3 people. Slide in, put your bags above".

Not one person who was standing made any effort to move out of the vestibule levels of the bi-level car to take a seat as the third person in a 3 seater to the frustration of the conductor.
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