Atlantic Avenue Brooklyn Terminal

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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby Kelly&Kelly » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:11 pm

The derailed car is being rerailed and removed from Flatbush Station tomorrow, Saturday. Curtains have been borrowed from the NYCTA to obscure the view of the derailment from the public. The LIRR Wreck Crew has been called out to do the rerailing. It is a difficult task accounting for the lack of clearance overhead and adjacent to the platforms, and will probably be carried out using old-time heavy labor and muscle with a minimal of modern equipment. The previous bumper block incident in Brooklyn was rerailed by the Transit Authority.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby ADL6009 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:54 pm

Kelly&Kelly wrote: The previous bumper block incident in Brooklyn was rerailed by the Transit Authority.



Just curious, when was the last incident? Cause?
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby Kelly&Kelly » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:30 pm

Only from my recollection can I say that the last major "bumper block incident" in Brooklyn occurred during early morning hours around 1997. The train rode up the block and went trough the wooden temporary ceiling. The engineer is remembered stating he feared that "Flatbush Avenue was falling in on him". The recorded cause of the mishap was human error; it is assumed by investigators that inappropriate sleep was involved. He had climbed out the front of the car, down some three feet to the platform, called the Movement Bureau on the phone and said he had "a minor derailment".

The train's conductor and brakeman were found in the rear car and didn't know anything had happened when the police woke them. The engineer, who was no favored employee to the Carrier was disqualified from engine service and found other work on the railroad where he enjoys employment today. The conductor and brakeman were "sternly cautioned".
Last edited by Jeff Smith on Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Minor edit for a reference to a post now deleted, i.e. collateral damage. Sorry!
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby ADL6009 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:54 pm

I was surprised that after the Hoboken accident that the LIRR didn't implement the same rule Change they did about having a cndr up front when coming into the block. Or that the FRA didn't require it.
But who can blame them, the past few years have been all about keeping people out of the cab "for safety" and having a "sterile cab environment". How would it look for them to have to admit having a conductor in the cab enhances safety?
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby Jeff Smith » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:09 pm

Let's keep this off craft wars and personal attacks, please.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby mirrodie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:12 am

A few observations on the last 3 pax derailments (Hudson speed curve, Hoboken and Atlantic):

1. Engineers "do not remember" the last few moments before impact. (Whether or not that is true or a union enforced "I plead the 5th"comment, I often wonder. But...

2. Sleep apnea seems to be the common thread that appears in fashion these days. However, in practice, I have been diagnosing sleep apnea more often these days now that there are other signs to look for.

3. Find it interesting that with the Hudson derailment, Rockfeller's name came out within 2 days. Not so with the other 2 derailments.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby MCL1981 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:00 am

I wonder what they'll do when the next crash is caused by the engineer and conductor being distracted while chatting about something in the cab.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby mirrodie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:50 am

MCL1981, thats an interesting point.

The better idea would be to have 2 engineers. In aviation, there are vast advantages to having 2 pilots in the cockpit. They work synergistically, with each sharing responsibilities in running the aircraft and employing crew source management.

A transportation consultant could devise a system were there are a pair of humans in the locomotive, not one operating and one "keeping company or supervising" but both engaged in the operation.

A concept and thought.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby rr503 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:53 am

Or you could automate the damn thing; remove the human factor all together.

I know it's an inconvenient truth for many here, but post-PTC, only a little has to be done to make engineers obsolete.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby DutchRailnut » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:11 am

yup but it shifts blame 100 % to railroad and that automation is not without fault.
after all its designed and maintained by humans, and can not always detect variables.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby DutchRailnut » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:14 am

mirrodie wrote:MCL1981, thats an interesting point.

The better idea would be to have 2 engineers. In aviation, there are vast advantages to having 2 pilots in the cockpit. They work synergistically, with each sharing responsibilities in running the aircraft and employing crew source management.

A transportation consultant could devise a system were there are a pair of humans in the locomotive, not one operating and one "keeping company or supervising" but both engaged in the operation.

A concept and thought.


somehow your thinking is flawed, freight trains run with 2 people in cab, and at low speed have all kind of mishaps.
I find having others in cab to be distracting, be it a RFE or a trainee.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby Kelly&Kelly » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:08 pm

By far the most common cause of railroad accidents is human error. In an industry where trains are controlled manually by engineers, human input and responsibility operates trains as technology adds a layer of protection. As the dependability of technology improves and the industry standardizes, it's natural to see more operational decisions turned over to automation. Most of the rail industry is in agreement that a level of dependability necessary to replace an engineman's judgement in critical areas has yet to be reached, thus the opposition to the flawed PTC proposals.

As the dependability of technology surpasses the dependability of human judgement, more faith will be placed in the machines. We see this with autonomous automobiles. Would you want to sit back and let your KIA decide to cut off an eighteen wheeler while you watch Harry Potter? Those clamoring for automated train control would be well served to consider this and understand the conservative actions of common carriers.

It's interesting in this Brooklyn case to note that ninety years ago the Flatbush Avenue station, as well as the entire Atlantic Avenue line was equipped with automatic train stops. Every signal, as well as the blocks in Brooklyn, were equipped with motorized "stop arms" that raised up adjacent to the rail when signals displayed stop. That arm engaged a brake valve on the old MP41 and MP54 equipment which applied the emergency brake if the train passed it. These were installed pursuant to New York City law, and are currently in use on the subway. They were removed in the 1960's and '70s. New York State claimed, as a government entity, it was exempt.
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby 8th Notch » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:43 pm

mirrodie wrote:MCL1981, thats an interesting point.

The better idea would be to have 2 engineers. In aviation, there are vast advantages to having 2 pilots in the cockpit. They work synergistically, with each sharing responsibilities in running the aircraft and employing crew source management.

A transportation consultant could devise a system were there are a pair of humans in the locomotive, not one operating and one "keeping company or supervising" but both engaged in the operation.

A concept and thought.


3 engineers in the cab here (although 1 was a student.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Bu ... derailment
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby mirrodie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:23 pm

somehow your thinking is flawed, freight trains run with 2 people in cab, and at low speed have all kind of mishaps.
I find having others in cab to be distracting, be it a RFE or a trainee.


The best ideas start out rough. Perfect is not the enemy of the good. That said, somehow you missed the subtle difference and point I made:

In aircraft handling, both pilots are hands on, working as a team. The roles aren't to just have a 2nd body there nor supervision. The systems are such that both are actively helping fly.

Now, do you need 2 people in the cab to run a loco? No. But if the suggestion of 2 people in the cab is to be made, it would need to be economically feasible. You'd have to create a role for the 2nd person in the cab, a role that is hands on int of operation, in order for it to make sense.


As for full automation recommendations, while on paper, makes sense, ultimately humans program and fix them....both are ultimately prone to human invention. (Airbus and its automation and how humans have overrode their safety mechanisms, come to mind)
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Re: LIRR Derailment - Atlantic Terminal track 6

Postby SwingMan » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:35 pm

I think an area that needs to be addressed is locomotive engineers on overnight shifts. How to properly monitor that locomotive engineers can get adequate rest and to predict possible issues (such as having an extra day off). Overnight shifts area part of railroading, especially on the LIRR. Remember, they are the only commuter railroad in the United States with 24 hour, 7 day a week operation.

That being said, having two qualified locomotive engineers on ALL jobs does not make a lick of sense. There are many jobs with perfectly normal hours and would, quite frankly, create more undesired situations.

It is certainly something that can be argued both ways, and there is nothing wrong with that.
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