MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby djimpact1 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:44 am

Trainman101 wrote:So how much is csx paying the state to run trains on the line? Just wondering how I'm getting my investment back.

Just remember, your investment is everyone else's investment too. If you're that interested, I'd recommend contacting MassDOT & not seeking answers on a railfan forum.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:57 am

dbperry wrote:Did / does CSX pay property taxes on freight lines they own to the town they're in? If that's true, is one potential group of losers in this deal all the towns along the line who lose property tax revenue?


Believe railroads are under some sort of special category dating back to the 19th century property easements they were land-granted. NIMBY's wouldn't be so hot-to-trot to pull up all the rails and get everything under town control if they were collecting town taxes on a privately-owned ROW. State does collect various taxes from the private RR's and power companies that share active or inherit inactive ROW's to string their lines. And yard properties get taxed more like 'typical' property. But I don't know how all the arcane interstate commerce laws serve up the tax revenue on running-rail ROW's because of the atypical land use and zoning. Again...the states wouldn't be so hot-to-trot to buy up those lines--including all the abandoned ones to slap landbanking protection on--for public ownership if they generated any sort of significant revenue stream from property taxes alone.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby Trainman101 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:01 pm

djimpact1 wrote:
Trainman101 wrote:So how much is csx paying the state to run trains on the line? Just wondering how I'm getting my investment back.

Just remember, your investment is everyone else's investment too. If you're that interested, I'd recommend contacting MassDOT & not seeking answers on a railfan forum.


Hey DJ unless you have an answer to my question I would recommend you not post here is this discussion.

Seriously thou is csx still paying taxes on the line? Are they now leasing it from the state? Paying by carload? Anything? Any ideas
?
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:11 pm

Trackage rights. Read the STB filings. It outlines the rights and responsibilities in surgical detail.



And please don't start this poo-flinging back up again...on yet another page of this thread, on a new sub-forum.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby Trainman101 » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:02 am

I know you can't accept when someone shoots down your arguments like I did earlier in the thread. Please don't call it poo flinging like a 5 year would do.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby djimpact1 » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:48 am

Trainman101 wrote:
djimpact1 wrote:
Trainman101 wrote:So how much is csx paying the state to run trains on the line? Just wondering how I'm getting my investment back.

Just remember, your investment is everyone else's investment too. If you're that interested, I'd recommend contacting MassDOT & not seeking answers on a railfan forum.


Hey DJ unless you have an answer to my question I would recommend you not post here is this discussion.

Seriously thou is csx still paying taxes on the line? Are they now leasing it from the state? Paying by carload? Anything? Any ideas
?

Trainman101, I will repeat my statement that your investment is everyone else's too. With that said, I have no less right to post in relation to "my investment" concerning this purchase than you do...the difference is, I'm not immature & rude enough to try and tell you where you should & shouldn't post.

Your "recommendation" is based off of nothing but an apparent self-created complex due to lack of instant satisfaction. Seriously, contacting MassDOT for some answers would probably prove more useful...unless it's too intimidating/thorough of a process for you to undergo, in which case you'll have to keep waiting for answers to trickle down. I wish you luck with your findings.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby Red Wing » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:09 pm

It has been a smart plan of Mass DOT, Massport, MBTA, DCR and other agencies to purchase ROW's. Be it for rail trails, commuter rail, freight considerations, utility payments and the like. Could you imagine what the Conn River Line or any of the northside MBTA lines would be like if they were still owned or maintained by PAR (look at the Downeaster)? Destressing the rails on the Worcester Main will give us faster commutes (if CSX still owned the line would they have done this). Future tourist dollars to the Northern Berkshires with the future move of the Berkshire Scenic. There is more accountability of my tax dollars when we give money to the railroads to repair Commonwealth owned lines (ask Connecticut about the money given to the Housatonic). I don't know what the investment of the Framingham Secondary will bring but someone realized that there was importance in owning it.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby John_Perkowski » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:31 pm

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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby BandA » Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:41 pm

dbperry wrote:Did / does CSX pay property taxes on freight lines they own to the town they're in? If that's true, is one potential group of losers in this deal all the towns along the line who lose property tax revenue?
I'm not an expert, but yes CSX was a taxpayer and no, MassDOT is not a taxpayer, even on their for-profit Mass Turnpike Extension.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby newpylong » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:57 am

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:
dbperry wrote:Did / does CSX pay property taxes on freight lines they own to the town they're in? If that's true, is one potential group of losers in this deal all the towns along the line who lose property tax revenue?


Believe railroads are under some sort of special category dating back to the 19th century property easements they were land-granted. NIMBY's wouldn't be so hot-to-trot to pull up all the rails and get everything under town control if they were collecting town taxes on a privately-owned ROW. State does collect various taxes from the private RR's and power companies that share active or inherit inactive ROW's to string their lines. And yard properties get taxed more like 'typical' property. But I don't know how all the arcane interstate commerce laws serve up the tax revenue on running-rail ROW's because of the atypical land use and zoning. Again...the states wouldn't be so hot-to-trot to buy up those lines--including all the abandoned ones to slap landbanking protection on--for public ownership if they generated any sort of significant revenue stream from property taxes alone.


No - Railroads pay property taxes like anyone else - on both rights of way and yards. That is why they are so quick to abandon or remove second mains not in use. There is language in place to prevent ridiculous hikes in taxes due to the nature of rail use vs other property though.

Any town who has online GIS you can find rights of way and see what RR owns title and what their taxes are.

If the line is abandoned obviously the railroad doesn't pay taxes and previous property owners from a hundred years ago get their land back - good luck for anyone trying to prove title. States are quick to get the land because no one is paying taxes anymore once abandoned and obviously the state won't pay land tax to the municipalities.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby Safetee » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:14 pm

it's really very easy. ma dot wanted to buy the lines for future use. CSX was willing to sell the lines to ma dot to have and to hold to love and to cherish but among other things csx retains the freight franchise in perpetuity. just like pan am on the knowledge corridor. or csx previously on the south coast lines. the freight railroads are typically not wild about operating passenger service themselves. but if a government entity wants a line bad enough for future use as a passenger line and is willing to pay cash for the row and is further willing to allow the the freight carrier to keep the freight franchise, most freight railroads will look at this as a winning situation especially if the passenger entity intends to fix up the freight line at no cost to the freight carrier. come to think of it that's pretty much the same thinking that allowed the northeast corridor to happen. if the current owning freight carriers were not allowed to keep their freight franchises and there is substantial freight on the lines, what incentive would there be to sell and give up those lines to potentially competing carriers?
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:32 pm

Safetee wrote:it's really very easy. ma dot wanted to buy the lines for future use. CSX was willing to sell the lines to ma dot to have and to hold to love and to cherish but among other things csx retains the freight franchise in perpetuity. just like pan am on the knowledge corridor. or csx previously on the south coast lines. the freight railroads are typically not wild about operating passenger service themselves. but if a government entity wants a line bad enough for future use as a passenger line and is willing to pay cash for the row and is further willing to allow the the freight carrier to keep the freight franchise, most freight railroads will look at this as a winning situation especially if the passenger entity intends to fix up the freight line at no cost to the freight carrier. come to think of it that's pretty much the same thinking that allowed the northeast corridor to happen. if the current owning freight carriers were not allowed to keep their freight franchises and there is substantial freight on the lines, what incentive would there be to sell and give up those lines to potentially competing carriers?


Actually, CSX bundled the South Coast lines in the Worcester Line sale to get out of that territory and hand it off to Mass Coastal. They're going to do the same thing when they hand Grafton & Upton the Milford Branch, only there the lease the T signed with Conrail 28 years ago has a sale option at pre-agreed price (indexed to inflation)...so that one will happen just by them tapping the state on the shoulder and saying "Do it; I ain't interested in being a shortline landlord." It's as much a part of their strategy to offload as much low-margin locals territory on landlocked shortlines as it is to convert all their off-main properties to trackage rights. Then it's just a matter of banking the reduced operating costs and seeing if the shortlines chase every small carload the Class I didn't want to. They take it all in interchange regardless, so a hedged bet on the shortline increasing the business could end up increasing CSX's margins vs. if they continued delivering door-to-door.

There's always possibility of them giving MC more territory, since they can dish off the Middleboro Secondary and the Old Colony main south of Braintree Yard while still keeping MC landlocked at both ends. That ends up washing their hands of everything that has a nearby shortline to outsource to. If that ever comes to pass then you will see freights on the Walpole-Mansfield segment of the Framingham Sec. decline from 2 round trips per day to only 1 round trip per day. That being the segment the T wants as a commuter rail hold, that's the sales pitch they lead with. They still need the Upper Sec. for the most lucrative business and the interchanges, but tell the state "If you want any of it you gotta buy all of it" and they fulfill HQ's mandate to convert everything that's not a mainline profit center to trackage rights. So who knows...they may be plotting 2 steps ahead on a further consolidation of their Eastern MA locals.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby craven » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:48 am

New Crossing installed on Hospital Road in Medfield.

Also, Thousands (1,000's) of new Ties staged beside the secondary from the RR Bridge spanning the Charles River on the Sherborn/Medfield side. Rail equipment staged on the siding by the Needham switch .

Looks like that section is getting an upgrade.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby craven » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:47 pm

Hyrail crossing RT. 27 in Sherborn this week.

Noticed a bundles of new Ties waiting to be installed by the Prospect St. crossing in Sherborn.

A lot of work being done on this line recently.
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Re: MassDOT Acquisition of Framingham Secondary

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:08 pm

Lots of crap crossing surfaces needing a full renewal. This line always has freeze-thaw and drainage problems around its crossing surfaces because the wood ones are so badly shot. They're breaking out the crossing rubber bigtime as they plow their way down.


Probably will also see upgrades to the crossing protection. It's mostly flashers-only, not too many gates. This line does have traffic levels needing more gate installs than it's got. Hell, if MassDOT was doing a blitz of spanking-new gate installs on a branch as marginal as the Wattupa in Dartmouth this summer, the Framingham Sec. certainly qualifies as high-priority enough for the same.
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