Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby Disney Guy » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:17 pm

Bad news reporting?

Several reports including one in Metro mentioned a second train having to be braked hard to avoid colliding with the derailed train.

This should not happen. The derailed train should have been protected by red block signals behind it and on the inbound Cleveland Circle track that was fouled.
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby chrisf » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:32 pm

Disney Guy wrote:Bad news reporting?

Several reports including one in Metro mentioned a second train having to be braked hard to avoid colliding with the derailed train.

This should not happen. The derailed train should have been protected by red block signals behind it and on the inbound Cleveland Circle track that was fouled.


That was reported by the Boston Fire Dept. on Twitter. I was thinking it was an oncoming train rather than a following train.
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby bostontrainguy » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:38 pm

chrisf wrote:
Disney Guy wrote:Bad news reporting?

Several reports including one in Metro mentioned a second train having to be braked hard to avoid colliding with the derailed train.

This should not happen. The derailed train should have been protected by red block signals behind it and on the inbound Cleveland Circle track that was fouled.


That was reported by the Boston Fire Dept. on Twitter. I was thinking it was an oncoming train rather than a following train.


That doesn't make sense either way - following or oncoming (C Train). Maybe they thought the second car was another train or maybe it was an inbound Riverside train that stopped abruptly when the operator saw the outbound train derailing?
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby 4400Washboard » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:18 pm

Looks like the train was going too fast and jumped the rails and slammed into the wall. I don't have track maps of the are, but I'm assuming that the track the train derailed on makes a prompt turn which the train jumped.
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby MBTA F40PH-2C 1050 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:40 pm

What I believe the misunderstanding is here, is this was a 2 car trolley set, and the sudden jolt obviously stopped the 2nd part of the train surprisingly, unexpectedly quickly injuring some. Gotta remember who we are getting this information from, Media has also distorted RR information and operations....Just my 2 cents As a few mentioned a couple posts above, trains on all other tracks would have had a STOP signal Aspect on the Wayside, and no need to come to a "sudden" stop, seeing as they should already be preparing to stop or already be stopped at the Junction
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby TrainManTy » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:18 am

MBTA F40PH-2C 1050 wrote:Gotta remember who we are getting this information from, Media has also distorted RR information and operations....Just my 2 cents


Agreed. I've already heard the operator called a "conductor"...
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby Adams_Umass_Boston » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:43 pm

http://www.whdh.com/story/24951449/derailed-trolley-operator-has-record-of-moving-violations

"Derailed trolley operator has record of moving violations

Posted: Mar 12, 2014 6:51 AM Updated: Mar 12, 2014 11:05 AM
BOSTON (WHDH) -

The driving record of the MBTA operator involved in the derailment on the green line has been under scrutiny.

According to The Herald, his personal driving record includes 20 moving violations between 1984 and 2009. That operator was hired by the MBTA in 2008, one year before the agency was required to vet operator's driving records before hiring them.

He is now on leave pending an investigation.

MBTA officials said speed was a factor in Monday's crash at the Fenway stop.

Ten people were hurt."
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby CRail » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:34 pm

And the relevance is...? I don't mind my language in the privacy of my own home, does that mean I'm likely to shoot my mouth off to people at my job?
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby Adams_Umass_Boston » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:31 am

http://www.wcvb.com/news/trolley-driver-in-crash-had-been-fired-in-2010-team-5-learns/24944650

Trolley driver in crash had been fired in 2010, Team 5 learns

"Team 5 Investigates has learned that MBTA driver now under investigation for Monday's trolley car accident was once fired after another accident as a trolley car operator.
Related

Sydley Gardner was fired for not following protocol after a Sept. 2010 incident on the Green Line. But due to a technicality, he was reinstated by an arbitrator only to be involved in another accident two days ago.

Gardner of Mattapan is the focus of this investigation. MBTA officials say speed was a key factor in the derailment.

But this was not Gardner's first accident as a motorman. Less than four years earlier, a source with knowledge of incident said Gardner was fired after a Sept. 2010 accident at Park Street station. The incident on Sept 5, 2010, occurred at 11:30 p.m.

Gardner was the operator of the trolley that hit a passenger waiting for the train. She was deemed negligent for crossing the yellow line as the train pulled in, suffering neck and head injuries.

However, sources told Team 5 that Gardner was fired for not notifying authorities after discovering his train had hit her.

Team 5 Investigates learned that Gardner was reinstated by a arbitrator because of a technicality involving the date of his firing. Sources say it was his only other accident as an MBTA driver."
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby Gerry6309 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:06 pm

Think about this…

"Speed was a factor."

At that location the car was supposed to be starting from a dead stop at the interlocking signal.

If the signal was double red, as it should have been, the train should have stopped, waited for the signal, and then started up to proceed through the switch. If the operator was looking at the switch, and not the signal, he may have hit the switch going slow, but not slow enough. The signal system has a camera that records run-throughs, so there is little chance that such an action was missed.

On the other hand, if the truck was fighting the curve for some reason, and it was the lead truck that derailed, not the more common center one, it could have picked the first frog in the diamond (it never reached the second frog per photo). In that case a low speed derailment was possible, but this is unlikely since these cars have good emergency brakes.

It will all come out when investigated, and if the MBTA suspects the operator, there is a good chance he got his picture taken!

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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby Adams_Umass_Boston » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:44 pm

A newish photo of 3602 showing the front end damage.

MBTA: 'Human error' caused Monday's trolley derailment
Source: Trolley driver fired after crash

http://www.wcvb.com/news/mbta-human-error-caused-mondays-trolley-derailment/24978608
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby RailBus63 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:53 am

I really question how much of a safety culture exists in the MBTA. As others have noted, it is fairly common to see Green Line and bus operators pass one of those white and red '6 MPH' signs going at least 15 or 20 miles per hour. I don't necessarily blame the operators for this - if management is focusing only on schedule performance, following the speed limits makes it impossible to stay on schedule and nobody is out there checking if those limits are being followed, the it's only human nature to begin fudging the speed when an operator thinks they can get away with it without being penalized.
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby CRail » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:21 am

The way a 25mph speed limit isn't realistic on Mass Ave, a 6 mile an hour speed limit isn't realistic anywhere. If those were followed, you'd want to reach over and step on the accelerator yourself. I'd like to see realistic speed limits posted and enforced (everywhere, meaning for public roads as well). The grey area leads to this culture of unsafety and traps drivers (and motormen) to become accustomed to what will be pinned on them should something go wrong.
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby RailBus63 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:24 pm

CRail wrote:The way a 25mph speed limit isn't realistic on Mass Ave, a 6 mile an hour speed limit isn't realistic anywhere. If those were followed, you'd want to reach over and step on the accelerator yourself. I'd like to see realistic speed limits posted and enforced (everywhere, meaning for public roads as well). The grey area leads to this culture of unsafety and traps drivers (and motormen) to become accustomed to what will be pinned on them should something go wrong.


Completely agree. The most ridiculous example are the 6 MPH signs in various busways and the Harvard Square tunnel. Set realistic speed limits and enforce those.
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Re: Green Line Derailment 3/10/14

Postby highgreen215 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:44 pm

Are T speedometer readouts designed to indicate 6 MPH? If not, how can you hold an operator to that standard? Most speedometers read in 5s so perhaps that should be the speed limit, or raised to 10 MPH when conditions permit.
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