PC Deepwater Green

Discussion relating to the Penn Central, up until its 1976 inclusion in Conrail. Visit the Penn Central Railroad Historical Society for more information.

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PC Deepwater Green

Postby Otto Vondrak » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:29 am

We get lots of inquires about Penn Central's "Deepwater Green" color. Read on!

http://rgvrrm.blogspot.com/2010/12/penn ... green.html

In 2002, the R&GVRRM repainted ex-Penn Central transfer caboose #18526 back into its as built PC 'Deepwater Green' paint color and Penn Central lettering. Choosing an accurate color was important to the museum and after much research, a paint code for 'Deepwater Green' was uncovered in an online Sherwin-Williams fleet color database. The color listed and used was a General Motors color (supplier color code WA5764 / Sherwin-Williams formula number 2312).
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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby Jeff Smith » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:06 am

Otto, I think that was the only thing that I liked about PC: the color. ;-)
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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby joseph » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:53 pm

no matter what colors the company wore, i liked working for Penn Central. we were the underdog, similar to giving your best while playing for the Chicago Cubs.
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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby XBNSFer » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:05 pm

The name that always stuck for me is "Pea Soup Green" lol.

I think they should have used THAT as the color for their locomotives, instead of the almost-but-not-quite-black "Brunswick Green." Not that it would have saved them from the inevitable bankruptcy or anything, but it would have made for better looking early Conrail locomotive power. ;)
GE, not EMD, makes the best locomotives now; has for over 20 years. Get over it.
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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby scottychaos » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:22 pm

Its a myth that PC used Brunswick green for locomotives..they used plain old black..and I can prove it! :)
Some examples of genuine PRR Brusnwick green:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 4&nseq=160

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 133&nseq=6

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 89&nseq=47

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 15&nseq=48

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 64&nseq=65

Notice the actual visible green tint..yes, Brusnwick green is very dark, but it *is* visually distinguishable from black,
you can actually see the green in it..the green is there and visible..

Have you ever seen that green tint on a PC locomotive? no, you haven't..because they were black.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 36&nseq=95

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 1&nseq=150

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 1&nseq=162

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 19&nseq=11

The myth probably started because there is a rumor that the *very first* locomotive painted for PC perhaps used Brunswick green,
but this has never been confirmed..
this one loco, perhaps mentioned in print at the time, might have started the rumor "PC is going to use Brunswick Green" that persists to this day..
but if the first PC loco did get green, it was the only one..
the rest are undeniably pure black..the entire photographic record proves it.

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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby XBNSFer » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:15 pm

I don't think it's a "myth" that PC used Brunswick Green on locomotives. I don't think it's a myth that they used black, either. I think PC actually (given their financial state) used whatever was on hand, sometimes black, sometimes "Brunswick Green." Here's some PC power that doesn't look so black...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 84&nseq=11

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 15&nseq=27

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 94&nseq=31

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 51&nseq=74

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 4&nseq=143

In fact, here's a PRR unit and a PC unit together. The colors look the same to me lol.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 94&nseq=69

You have to realize that "Brunswick Green" was little more than a lot of black paint with a little green paint added to it. It was just about impossible to distinguish it from black. It might show up more in certain pictures, but you have to allow for the light/color balance/digital scanning black/white point adjustments/fading of old slides. Based on all the filth and grime on most of their power (PRR or PC), it's damn near impossible to determine what their actual "color" was.

In any event, I'd still have preferred the "Pea Soup Green" to any of it, black OR "Brunswick Green."
GE, not EMD, makes the best locomotives now; has for over 20 years. Get over it.
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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby scottychaos » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:05 am

XBNSFer wrote:I don't think it's a "myth" that PC used Brunswick Green on locomotives. I don't think it's a myth that they used black, either. I think PC actually (given their financial state) used whatever was on hand, sometimes black, sometimes "Brunswick Green." Here's some PC power that doesn't look so black...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 84&nseq=11

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 15&nseq=27

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 94&nseq=31

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 51&nseq=74

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 4&nseq=143

In fact, here's a PRR unit and a PC unit together. The colors look the same to me lol.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 94&nseq=69

You have to realize that "Brunswick Green" was little more than a lot of black paint with a little green paint added to it. It was just about impossible to distinguish it from black. It might show up more in certain pictures, but you have to allow for the light/color balance/digital scanning black/white point adjustments/fading of old slides. Based on all the filth and grime on most of their power (PRR or PC), it's damn near impossible to determine what their actual "color" was.

In any event, I'd still have preferred the "Pea Soup Green" to any of it, black OR "Brunswick Green."


Those are all black..
if you look at the color balance of the photos overall, you can see there is a color shift..the photos are not well balanced.
a common problem with older photos, and especially when scanning slides..
also, dirt and fading can change the tone over time..black fades to grey, often with a hint of color..
but it was pure black to begin with..

This question really isnt in doubt..
its simply a known and well-confirmed fact that they were black..

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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby kilroy » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:56 pm

XBNSFer wrote:I don't think it's a "myth" that PC used Brunswick Green on locomotives. I don't think it's a myth that they used black, either. I think PC actually (given their financial state) used whatever was on hand, sometimes black, sometimes "Brunswick Green." Here's some PC power that doesn't look so black...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 84&nseq=11

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 15&nseq=27

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 94&nseq=31

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 51&nseq=74

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 4&nseq=143

In fact, here's a PRR unit and a PC unit together. The colors look the same to me lol.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 94&nseq=69

You have to realize that "Brunswick Green" was little more than a lot of black paint with a little green paint added to it. It was just about impossible to distinguish it from black. It might show up more in certain pictures, but you have to allow for the light/color balance/digital scanning black/white point adjustments/fading of old slides. Based on all the filth and grime on most of their power (PRR or PC), it's damn near impossible to determine what their actual "color" was.

In any event, I'd still have preferred the "Pea Soup Green" to any of it, black OR "Brunswick Green."


Can't use the G's an proof. PC just painted out the keystone and added the mating worms. Some of them on NJT carried their single gold stipe to the bitter end.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2439965
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2349356
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2177577
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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby dti406 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:59 pm

This was discussed extensively on the PC Modelers Yahoo Group, and the PC paint specifications called for DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) on locomotives repainted in the company shops. All new locomotives were to be painted black. The new GE U33c's ordered by the Pennsylvania were painted black.

In addition black when it fades gets a green hue after time, just look at your black socks after they have been washed many times. Black paint is theoretically made up of all the colors in the color wheel and for some reason black fades to green.

Also Columbia Gas of Ohio back in the 60's and 70's painted their vehicles in orange and green, the green was the same as Deepwater Green, but they called it Swampwater Green.

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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby Allen Hazen » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:48 pm

"Trains" has published a special commemorative pamphlet on Norfolk Southern's commemorative diesels. The bit of text about the "Penn Central" units says it was painted Brunswick Green, with the undercarriage genuine black. The colour photo above this shows a definite greenish tint to one area of the cab side-- I think basically a reflection of the green foliage behind the camera position. There is much greater contrast between this area and blacker looking parts of the cab side than there is between the blacker looking areas and th supposedly genuine black undercarriage.
Moral: don't trust colour photographs to settle this question: the colour of a Penn Central diesel in a photo is likely to depend more on the lighting (in particular, whether or not the unit is getting light reflected from grass or foliage) than on the paint!
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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby kilroy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:04 pm

Black paint is theoretically made up of all the colors in the color wheel and for some reason black fades to green.


Black paint should be the absence of all color. All colors would be white. Run white light through a prism and you will get all the colors in the spectrum.
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Re: PC Deepwater Green

Postby Tadman » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:21 am

I tend to agree withe the post that says the PC used whatever is on hand. There's a Don Ball book that shows freshly painted E7's in tuscan and PC worms. Also, given that the railroad is broke, they probably didn't throw out the DGLE laying around the shops.

Finally, I think this is a really fun mystery to keep working on. But relying on the color capturing ability of really old film might not be the best way to solve the mystery for good.

I do agree that the PRR units have a more greenish tint than any PC units, which have always looked dark black to me.
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