Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby MEC407 » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:49 pm

mtuandrew wrote:Why not? I know it needs a ton of radiator space, but there are some mighty creative engineers at GE who could come up with a solution. :wink:


Oh I have no doubt they could re-redesign it; they just haven't.
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby Allen Hazen » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:14 pm

RE: AMT125. I once had a copy of the brochure EMD put out on this, but passed it on to a (now deceased) friend. The CONCEPT was clearly inspired by the British Rail HST: the operating configuration envisioned was to have about seven cars (I think essentially Amfleet) with a locomotive at each end. The locomotives not so much: they would have weighed about one and a half times as much as HST power cars (= Class 43 locomotives)! (Not surprisingly: for a start, the prime mover was to be a 16-645, so in the 40,000 pound range, as opposed to the Class 43's 12 cylinder Valenta at about 15,000 pounds. And the locomotive carbody would doubtless have had to be built to U.S. crashworthiness standards, which would have imposed a lot of extra structural weight.)

I'm not sure detailed design of the locomotive was ever undertaken. The BB version would have had a newly designed truck… though the brochure suggested it could also be buit with E-unit style A1A trucks.
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby NorthWest » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:41 pm

I went digging in the archives and found a lot of interesting things, including the Genesis update with an ...interesting cab design. I'd like to add this, but would like specification numbers or model numbers if anyone has them.

We had a thread on another forum about the AMT-125 that I can't find right now. The trucks would have been traded in GSC trucks from E units in all likelihood, in order to lower the cost of the units at the time where the Es were meeting the scrapper.
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby Allen Hazen » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:03 pm

Northwest--
Anything you find in the archives… will find fascinated readers here!

As to the trucks on the AMT125: my recollection of the brochure is that it mentioned E-unit trucks as a possible alternative, but the artwork showed a BB unit. The B trucks would have been a new design: visually (at least in the artists' renderings) more like the high traction truck tested on a few GP40X (= GP50 prototypes), but actually a different design: I got the brochure at a conference on high-speed rail (in Pittsburgh), and asked an EMD person if the trucks would be of the design used on the GP40X and was told that no. … I have been appalled at the weight, and hence axle loadings, of recent American passenger (commuter) diesels, and personally think the adoption of A1A trucks, particularly on locomotives intended for high-speed service, would make a lot of sense. But the impression given by the brochure (and presentation at the conference) was that that was an option EMD would consider if asked, but that their thinking was concentration on the BB alternative.

At about the same time-- maybe a bit later-- GMD in Canada at least put out a press release with THEIR proposal for an alternative to the LRC. It looked like a fairly quick and dirty (cheap?) approach compared to the AMT125, with locomotives that looked, in the sketches, more like FP40.
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby EDM5970 » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:26 pm

I'd like to see a picture of a '3 series'. As stated it was built alongside the FA-2s. Was it domestic unit, like an FA, or a 'World Locomotive'? The description 12-244 and static, sounds like the specification DL-212A FA-2s built for the L&N in June 1956. I'm VERY familiar with them.
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby NorthWest » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:08 pm

EDM5970, it is an export locomotive; the very first of the DL500s. Production numbers appear to indicate three were built, but I can't figure out for who (at least one may have been a demonstrator?). All three built were FPD-3s.


Allen, I found lots of interesting things, but in the general sense, and not any other not built models. In the Trains equivalent thread, an image of the F70PHAC proposal was posted, and I'd link it, but I can't specifically link the post. The top of the page is http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/741/t/220181.aspx?page=7#2783332. It also appears to ride on new design trucks. In both cases, I suspect that EMD would have actually have designed the truck once someone had ordered the model.

Meanwhile, Pnuedyne has added some wonderful documents and bits of information in a new thread. These include models

DL-531, RSC-8 A1A-A1A
DL-534, RSC-31, A1A-A1A
DL-534, RSD-31, C-C
DL-515, 8-251E DL535
DL-541 RS20 B-B and RSC20 A1A-A1A

Thanks!
Last edited by NorthWest on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby NorthWest » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:19 pm

EDM5970, on further research it appears that the first World Locomotives were 23 FCA-3s for Pakistan that had some differences from DL500s and were produced under specification DL212! It appears that they are a slightly modified FA2 on A1A trucks. After this Alco must have decided that it was worth its while to create the DL500 specification and the FP-3, FPC-3 and FPD-3.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=496745&nseq=2
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby NorthWest » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:04 pm

Updated list:
The List

GE

B18-7

U18C-North American extension of the U18B

U56

U18BT

U15BT

U33CG

B40-8(B)

C23-7

B28-7

C28-7

B23-8

B33-7

C33-7

Genesis II

U4B

U18B export unit

U18B

U10C

U20B

U26C early 16 cylinder export

EMD

DD40A

F70PHAC

SD39-DC

SD55

AMT-125

RB3600

GMDH-2

SD40-2B

GP2000

SD39-2

SDL39-2

SD59

SD49

TR12

F45B

TR9

F18

F20

G6

R

M-K

MK5000AC

MK6000AC

F-M

CFA-24

CFB-24

CPB-20

CPB-24

ALCO

PA-3

FA-4

C428

C620

C624

C636F

C636P(A)

C636P(B)

C650DH

RSD-33

SSB1 (S1 calf)

SSB2 (S2 calf)

FP3

FP6

FPC6

FP7

FPC7

RSD1B

RSC-8

RSC-31

RSD-31

C515

RS20

RSC-20

Ingalls

3-S

6-S

5-S

17A

MLW

RSC-23

RS-13

RS-24

MX412

MX415

MX612

Bombardier

HR416

HR618

HR406

Lima

800 HP BB road switcher

1600 HP center cab C-C road switcher/transfer

2400 HP center cab C-C road switcher/transfer

3200 HP CC cab unit powered by 6 free piston generators powering a turbine.

1600 HP Switcher Combo

2400HP Switcher Combo

Baldwin

1000 HP C-C Road Switcher

1500 HP C-C Road Transfer (streamlined car body)

3000 HP A1A-A1A Road Locomotive

Phases/Other

Q cab Dash-7 GEs

GE Dash 8-32C (later updated phase of C32-8 that would have been somewhat like NS's Dash 8-32Bs)

A1A EMD G16

B-B EMD G16

Early U20C with carbody similar to U13C
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby Pneudyne » Mon May 08, 2017 4:18 am

To this list might be added the Fairbanks Morse export models that were catalogued but as far as I know, were never built.

Minimal outline details were provided here:

DRT 195410 p.223 Fairbanks-Morse.gif



FM is also known to have bid on the late 1954 New Zealand railways tender that resulted in the initial EMD G12 order. A key parameter that I think was included in the tender was very speedy delivery, where EMD, with its large production capacity, had the advantage over all others. Probably not written into the documentation, but evidentially de facto was that the successful bidder had to offer an EMD design. So the chances for most bidders were somewhere between slim and none.

Anyway, FM offered a 990 hp (gross) A1A-A1A road-switcher, which was a model not mentioned in the above item.

Goodwin in Australia offered a 975 hp Alco design that could be sourced from Australia, the USA or Canada. I’d guess that it was a precursor to the DL531, which I think was not announced until 1958. And GE offered an 1100 hp A1A-A1A road-switcher that I’d guess had the 8-cylinder Cooper-Bessemer engine and was a forerunner to the U12, announced in early 1956.

Baldwin licensee Cockerill offered a 1200 hp double-cab design that looked like a smaller edition of the SNCB (Belgium) type 201, but with six axles. Whether it had the Baldwin or the Lima-Hamilton engine is unknown.

It was interesting though that Alco, Baldwin, EMD, FM and GE designs were all represented in the bids (as well as various others from the UK and Europe).


Cheers,
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby NorthWest » Mon May 08, 2017 4:28 pm

Very interesting! I would be interesting to see how F-M would have figured out how to fit their block into a much tighter envelope. Something along the lines of the P-12-42 arrangement I suppose.

Without model numbers I'm reluctant to add them, but I'd love to find the mentioned brochures! (Limas are the exception as their designations are mostly railfan-created.)

Have you ever thought about writing an export locomotive book? It's a big hole in locomotive publishing.
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Re: Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

Postby Allen Hazen » Wed May 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Pneudyne--
I like the book idea! You've found so many articles from contemporary trade publications that something almost analogous to a "Train Shed Cyclopedia" compilation would be very valuable, but something with your narrative organizing them and your analytic commentary would be even better.
I don't know what the "rights and permissions" aspects of reprinting old articles would be: maybe a conversation with an "intellectual property" lawyer would be worth while at an early stage to help decide what is feasible, but a professional historian might also have useful suggestions.
Maybe the first thing to do would be to print out all your posts to relevant "Railroad.net" forums, together with copies of the articles you link to, and stack them to see how many pages you already have!
It does sound like a book I'd love to have. May I second NorthWest's suggestion that you consider the idea?
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