DL&W Electrification

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DL&W Electrification

Postby morris&essex4ever » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:41 pm

When the Dl&W electrified today's Morristown line between Hoboken and Dover, why did they only go to Dover and not to Lake Hopatcong? Was there not enough ridership/service west of Dover to justify the costs? Did the Lackawanna not have enough money to do so? Or is it because of something else?
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby TSTOM » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:56 pm

m&e -

Circa 1929-1930, Dover was the Western terminus of commuter operations. AIR, Lake Hopatcong was a popular Summer resort destination on weekends back then but probably pretty quiet otherwise.

Operationally, probably would have been cumbersome/wasteful to have electrics dead-head back to Dover for overnight storage.
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby M&Eman » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:32 pm

TSTOM wrote:Operationally, probably would have been cumbersome/wasteful to have electrics dead-head back to Dover for overnight storage.


There was no Port Morris Yard back then? That yard could have been electrified and Dover yard would not have even had to have been built.
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby JasW » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:47 am

M&Eman wrote:
TSTOM wrote:Operationally, probably would have been cumbersome/wasteful to have electrics dead-head back to Dover for overnight storage.


There was no Port Morris Yard back then? That yard could have been electrified and Dover yard would not have even had to have been built.


While the terminus for most trains on the M&E was Dover back in those days, there were still a handful of daily trains that continued past Dover and terminated either at Netcong or Washington, with at least one going all the way to P'burg. (None of them could really be classified as commuter trains, though, because the last one of the day left Hoboken in mid-afternoon.) So even if the Port Morris yard existed then (not sure) and were electrified, there would have still had to have been some dead-heading somewhere.
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby blockline4180 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:35 pm

I don't recall there ever being yard tracks at Port Morris from 1980 to 1994 or so. I thought the EL made a few set outs there in the 1970's, but don't know what happened beyond that. Didn't Conrail tear up the yard?
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby dano23 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:55 am

I believe Port Morris was mostly torn up by the EL. Aerial pictures from the early 70's only show what appears to be 2 tracks tops in the yard.
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby frank754 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:39 pm

I took an aerial snapshot of the area (Port Morris Junction) last year using Google Maps, and if this is the correct spot (right near the Tower), here it is. Seems like there still is a yard there. (Use the satellite view).

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... 3&t=h&z=18
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby JasW » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:26 am

frank754 wrote:I took an aerial snapshot of the area (Port Morris Junction) last year using Google Maps, and if this is the correct spot (right near the Tower), here it is. Seems like there still is a yard there. (Use the satellite view).

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... 3&t=h&z=18


That yard is a relatively recent development, I believe. I recall traipsing around out there around 1974 -- as dano indicates there wasn't much then. It had a semi-abandoned feel, as I recall.
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby blockline4180 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:07 pm

frank754 wrote:I took an aerial snapshot of the area (Port Morris Junction) last year using Google Maps, and if this is the correct spot (right near the Tower), here it is. Seems like there still is a yard there. (Use the satellite view).

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... 3&t=h&z=18



Yes, in 1994-95 NJT constructed a passenger storage yard, which I believe can accommodate 9 sets of commuter trains.
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby TSTOM » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:23 pm

Scroll down about 3/4 of the page below to The Railroad Takes Over....

http://www.landingnewjersey.com/portmorris.htm

This was a substantial freight yard for coal, lumber, etc., under the LACKAWANNA thru the 1950's. I doubt there was interest/room for an electrified MU storage yard circa 1930.
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby livesteamer » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:27 pm

IIRC, The Port Morris yard served as an interchange with the Lehigh and Hudson Railroad and during the 50s was a very busy place.
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby pdman » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:45 pm

The D&H interchange was quite substantial in Port Morris Yard. Also, it served locals from Philipsburg and east on the Boonton Line as well as runs as far east as Summit (picking up and dropping off some to and from the Gladstone Branch). And, I imagine one or two cars for the Rahway Valley. A local often came east to Summit to serve this purpose. Several times I saw a D&H engine doing this as late as the late 1950s. That local came in to Summit at around 9:30pm and left about an hour later in return direction.

Back to Port Morris, most all the mainline symbol freights stopped there between Hoboken and Buffalo. Westbound schedules showed the following in 1956:

HB-1, arrived 9:00pm, depart 9:20pm
HB-3, stop at 11:00pm
2/HB-3, arrive 12:25am, depart 12:55am
HB-5, arrive 1:30am, depart 2:00am
HB-7, arrive 7:15am, depart 7:45
HB-9, originate there at 11:40 am (following #3 Phoebe Snow which went through Port Morris Junction at 11:44)

I always wondered why the night passenger train, #15 Owl, went up the M&E (not making any stops). The only thing I could figure was that HB-5 left Hoboken at 11:45 and used the Boonton Line thereby it would have slowed #15 which left Hoboken at 1:01am passing Port Morris Junction at 2:08am. HB-5 left Port Morris at 2:00am; it passed Stroudsburg at 3:00am. The Owl must have followed HB-5. But, #15 stopped at Stroudsburg in 44 minutes at 2:52. Somewhere west of Stroudsburg, #15 overtook HB-5, because #15 arrived Scranton at 4:20 and HB-5 arrived at 5:15. HB-5 probably used helpers up the hill west of Stroudsburg.
"Passing points, New Jersey Cut-off Eastward freight trains, being handled by two engines, when clearing at Blairstown and Greendell, may hold main track and put first class or other trains through sidings."

DL&W ETT, No. 84. Nov. 8, 1942
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby TSTOM » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:57 pm

pd -

"....#15 which left Hoboken at 1:01am passing Port Morris Junction at 2:08am. HB-5 left Port Morris at 2:00am; it passed Stroudsburg at 3:00am. The Owl must have followed HB-5. But, #15 stopped at Stroudsburg in 44 minutes at 2:52. Somewhere west of Stroudsburg, #15 overtook HB-5, because #15 arrived Scranton at 4:20 and HB-5 arrived at 5:15. "

When was the Cut-Off single-tracked ?

If after 1956, #15 would have passed HB-5 within say 10 minutes or so....in New Jersey.

If before 1956, wasn't there a looong passing siding left ( for HB-5 to take/clear the main ) around/near Greendell ?

As you state above, #15 had to have overtaken/passed HB-5 in NJ to arrive Stroudsburg 8 minutes before him.
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby pdman » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:21 pm

I do remember a long siding there. In fact, from my many rides to Scranton and back sitting in the last seat of the observation car (#3 and #6 round trip was only $4.75 from Hoboken-Scranton and back on Mondays through Thursdays), I have a photo somewhere of it taken from the train. On that ride we smelled a foul smell for a couple of miles, and our conductor was very upset because a freight hauling hog cars was ahead of us. He said it should never have been that close in front of any of the through passenger trains.

I have a 1958 employee timetable that does not show a siding to exist in that year, but that was the timetable I took the fast freight and #15 schedules from. I wonder if one of the trains "wrong mained" by order for a part of that route?

Odd, how train-crazies are mulling over a bit of railroad history fifty years later about how two trains moved. It's one of those things spouses don't understand, and I'm sure, psychologists would stop to write down a not while listening to a client in a session. :)
"Passing points, New Jersey Cut-off Eastward freight trains, being handled by two engines, when clearing at Blairstown and Greendell, may hold main track and put first class or other trains through sidings."

DL&W ETT, No. 84. Nov. 8, 1942
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Re: DL&W Electrification

Postby pdman » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:32 pm

HB-5 and #15 both going westbound. Okay, I found what might be the answer: Greendell (11.87) miles west of Port Morris Junction had a siding with a car capacity plus engine and caboose of 136. The might have been where #15 passed it both going westbound.
"Passing points, New Jersey Cut-off Eastward freight trains, being handled by two engines, when clearing at Blairstown and Greendell, may hold main track and put first class or other trains through sidings."

DL&W ETT, No. 84. Nov. 8, 1942
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