Mileposts question.

Discussion relating to the D&H. For more information, please visit the Bridge Line Historical Society.

Moderator: MEC407

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby lstone19 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:17 am

Thanks ChiefTroll. IIRC, that station at Karner Rd. was "Colonie-Schenectady", not "Albany-Schenectady". I rode a train to it from the west in the late '70s via that whole slow route that avoided going through downtown Schenectady. Two or three years later (in 1980), I was able to ride to the new (and present) Schenectady station. To describe the Karner Rd. station as a "shack" was certainly accurate while the current Schenectady station is a very worthy station.
Larry
Roselle, IL (along the MILW West line)
ex-N&W Sandusky, Ohio
lstone19
 
Posts: 676
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:40 pm

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby lstone19 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:28 am

Something I noticed about that 1973 ETT I mentioned above is that the different lines are listed as if Mechanicville to Ballston Spa via Round Lake still existed with WY to QG and BW to JS being listed as part of the two different lines. When the Third Subdivision KN to SC "main" was rerouted WY-QG-BW-JS, the lines that already included WY-QG (Second Subdivision DJ to WY) and BW-JS (Third Subdivision GV to JS) kept them in their lines as well.
Larry
Roselle, IL (along the MILW West line)
ex-N&W Sandusky, Ohio
lstone19
 
Posts: 676
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:40 pm

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby ChiefTroll » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:25 am

Right about Colonie - Schenectady. That one had slipped my mind, because I never had to deal with it. That also led to some confusion with the old Colonie station on the D&H, and Colonie Yard and Shops. The PC station was in the Town of Colonie, as were the D&H facilities. I think the Watervliet city line was right at the east property line of the D&H, so the City of Watervliet didn't get any property taxes from it. The Arsenal was in Watervliet, but being Federal property it didn't pay property taxes, either.

The dual listing in the time table schedule pages of BW to JS, in both the Third Subdivision as it became, and the "Ballston Branch," GV to JS, was an anomaly in the time table that I endeavored to correct when I was on the Rules Committee. Even though that piece of main track was operated under TCS rules, where signal indication supersedes the superiority of trains, it is contrary to the basics of operating rules to have two time table schedules in effect on the same piece of main track.

I also tried to get the schedule pages between BW and Rouses Point to show dual mileages, e.g. "Miles from Albany," and "Mile Post Location." The Miles from Albany as listed in the time table were off by about seven miles from the actual mile posts. I believe it was finally corrected by CP. I represented the Engineering Department as a Rules Examiner for M of W on the south end, but the Transportation Department owned the time table. Even though the Transportation people were and still are good friends, we disagreed on those points, as well as on some minor points in the D&H Book of Rules that was revised to conform with Erie Lackawanna practice in 1971.

- Gordon Davids
ChiefTroll
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:51 pm
Location: Severna Park, MD

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby lstone19 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:24 pm

ChiefTroll wrote:The dual listing in the time table schedule pages of BW to JS, in both the Third Subdivision as it became, and the "Ballston Branch," GV to JS, was an anomaly in the time table that I endeavored to correct when I was on the Rules Committee.


I know that feeling. The N&W railroad service mentioned in my signature was two years as a very junior Assistant Trainmaster in Sandusky, Ohio over 30 years ago before deciding railroad management was not the correct career choice for me. Once in Sandusky, I of course familiarized myself with the operation. Within the yard we had an interlocking where we crossed the ex-NYC main line. I quickly noticed that the signals did not conform with the rule book and there was no TT special instruction for them. I asked my supervisor about it and was basically told everyone knows what they mean so don't worry about it (N&W, like it's old owner PRR, had used position light signals. After becoming independent of PRR, they were modified to add color to some aspects. The line into Sandusky was an ex-PRR line sold to N&W in 1964 as part of the N&W/NKP/WAB merger. The Stop and Stay (as we called it) aspect was closest to the rule book: two horizontal red on the upper (only) head when it should have been two horizontal red on the upper over a center red single light on the lower head. The proceed aspect was a PRR-style Clear: three vertical yellow on the upper head when it should have been two vertical green (although since this was an interlocking only signal (no block status beyond interlocking limits), you can also argue that it should have been Restricting). Finally, if you were lined into the Brewery Track, an industrial lead accessed via a powered switch within interlocking limits, you got a sort-of Restricting: an N&W style two horizontal red on top over a PRR-style three diagonal down-to-the-right on the bottom (N&W Restricting would have had the center light out on the bottom head) Today, that interlocking is all-NS and the 4x2 diamonds that existed 30 years ago have been reduced to 2x1 with the signals all replaced for both roads.
Larry
Roselle, IL (along the MILW West line)
ex-N&W Sandusky, Ohio
lstone19
 
Posts: 676
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:40 pm

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby Engineer Spike » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:06 pm

I was just reading back though this thread. Chief Troll was talking about tracks 1,2,&4 between CB and DJ. The present two tracks have a jog between Gage Rd. and Young's Rd. There is a unused bridge just north of the jog. Was this where a third track started, leading to the Albany Main?


Right now, I hold a job on the A&S. Between TP and LK, there are bridge piers upstream of the present bridge over the Susquehanna River. One can see the R.O.W. made a sharper curve just south of TP, in order to reach this old bridge. Timetable south of the bridge, is where Route 7 crosses over the line. It looks like Route 7 is on a fill over the old alignment. When was this change made?

Just south of Barnervill Rd., Cobleskill, it looks like the pole line follows an alignment which crossed Route 7 at grade, in downtown Cobleskill. One of the older engineers was telling of the fact that the line was at grade level through town. When was this done?
"Welcome all ye who enter; the show that never ends. Tingfield Sperminal Railway." (Graffiti on the entry to Mohawk Yard Office)
Engineer Spike
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:24 pm

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby ChiefTroll » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:55 pm

Engineer Spike wrote:I was just reading back though this thread. Chief Troll was talking about tracks 1,2,&4 between CB and DJ. The present two tracks have a jog between Gage Rd. and Young's Rd. There is a unused bridge just north of the jog. Was this where a third track started, leading to the Albany Main?
The three tracks started at JX Tower, Schoharie Jct, and ran to DJ. I believe you are running on old Track 4 on single track, then on Tracks 2 and 4 to the jog north of Gage Rd, then on 1 and 2 from there to DJ. The tracks were numbered 4-2-1 from east to west. Track 4 was the new "low grade."
Engineer Spike wrote:Right now, I hold a job on the A&S. Between TP and LK, there are bridge piers upstream of the present bridge over the Susquehanna River. One can see the R.O.W. made a sharper curve just south of TP, in order to reach this old bridge. Timetable south of the bridge, is where Route 7 crosses over the line. It looks like Route 7 is on a fill over the old alignment. When was this change made?
Bridge 577.58 over the Susquehanna south of Sidney was built in 1931 on the new alignment.
Engineer Spike wrote:Just south of Barnervill Rd., Cobleskill, it looks like the pole line follows an alignment which crossed Route 7 at grade, in downtown Cobleskill. One of the older engineers was telling of the fact that the line was at grade level through town. When was this done?
Bridge 516.01, D&H over NY Rt 7 (East Main St) at Cobleskill was built in 1937.
ChiefTroll
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:51 pm
Location: Severna Park, MD

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby Engineer Spike » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:02 pm

On one of the posts, Chief Troll was talking about the three main tracks in Oneonta. It stated that one lead to the Central. Today I was running north. Near Emmons, I noticed that there were two additional bridges beside the present single track. Was Emmons the end of 3 mains, and was this the spring switch mentioned? If it was powered, was it controlled by FA?
"Welcome all ye who enter; the show that never ends. Tingfield Sperminal Railway." (Graffiti on the entry to Mohawk Yard Office)
Engineer Spike
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:24 pm

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby Engineer Spike » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:07 pm

Chief, thanks for using the Guilford "Freight Main" mileages. This helps, as it is what I am used to.
"Welcome all ye who enter; the show that never ends. Tingfield Sperminal Railway." (Graffiti on the entry to Mohawk Yard Office)
Engineer Spike
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:24 pm

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby ChiefTroll » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:44 pm

Engineer Spike wrote:On one of the posts, Chief Troll was talking about the three main tracks in Oneonta. It stated that one lead to the Central. Today I was running north. Near Emmons, I noticed that there were two additional bridges beside the present single track. Was Emmons the end of 3 mains, and was this the spring switch mentioned? If it was powered, was it controlled by FA?

Track 4 north of Oneonta started at FA Tower. The south end was not part of FA interlocking - it just started as a main track within yard limits north of the interlocking limits with automatic block signals. I believe the first signal was at Main Street, which at the time was MX Tower, before the office call of MX was assigned to Mohawk. (At the time, Mohawk Yard train order office was GE.) . Track 4 was ABS northward from FA to N Tower, at the south end of the wye at Cooperstown Jct. The 1930 time table carried a special instruction that Track 4 was to be used by northward freight trains unless otherwise instructed, and Track 2 was to be used by northward first class trains. The object appears to have been to allow drag freights to get a roll on their trains before they entered Track 2 at N Tower.

Sometime well before I began roaming around Oneonta, ca 1956, Track 4 was cut back from N Tower to CM Cabin, south of the connection to the New York Central Catskill Mountain Branch (from whence came "CM," I believe). The NYC connection was actually on Track 2, north of CM.

When Tracks 1, 2 (and 4) at Oneonta were ABS territory, Track 2 was signaled northward. CM Cabin was a spring switch, which allowed northward trains to trail through from either Track 2 (normal) or Track 4 (forcing the points over). CM had a spring switch indicator for southward movements against the current of traffic, which indicated that the points were closed and locked for a movement from Track 2 to Track 2. To enter Track 4 southward the train had to stop and manually line the switch. I believe northward signals on both tracks, 2 and 4, were automatics which indicated the condition of the blocks to the north.

When TCS was installed between Schenevus (WN) and Oneonta, single track extended between MU Cabin at Colliers, south of Cooperstown Jct, and WN Cabin at Schenevus. Tracks 1 and 2 from MU through Oneonta to RB were then signaled for operation in both directions. CM became a controlled point, with home signals governing movement in both directions controlled by FA Tower. The spring switch remained as it was, and Track 4 was still signaled with ABS for northward moves from FA to CM.
ChiefTroll
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:51 pm
Location: Severna Park, MD

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby BobLI » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:53 am

Chief Troll, I recommend you read the book The Delaware & Hudson's Susquehanna Divsion Heritage Trail
Volume I - Albany/Schenectady to Oneonta by John Taibi. I think you will enjoy seeing the territory you described earlier in the book.
BobLI
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:46 am
Location: NY

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby ChiefTroll » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:02 pm

BobLI wrote:Chief Troll, I recommend you read the book The Delaware & Hudson's Susquehanna Division Heritage Trail
Volume I - Albany/Schenectady to Oneonta by John Taibi. I think you will enjoy seeing the territory you described earlier in the book.

Right! I have the book. It is most interesting to see the older towers, etc, that were gone by the time I was the D&H Track Supervisor at Oneonta. My territory ran from WY and KN on the north to Binghamton and Jefferson Jct. on the south.

- Gordon Davids, Chief Troll (From hanging around under bridges.)
ChiefTroll
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:51 pm
Location: Severna Park, MD

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby Engineer Spike » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:19 pm

I'd like to see this book too. It is amazing how much Guilford, the bankruptsy trustee, and CP butchered things. This is why I'm glad that this thread has been restarted. I'm glad that Chief Troll has been so kind in answering questions.

This most recent trip has spawned a few more questions for Mr. Troll. This deals with the north and south sides of Belden Hill. I know that double iron ran up to Harpursville Bridge (which I hate going over. It had a 10mph restriction for a while, until half-assed repairs brought it up to 25mph.). It looks like there are several spots south of the bridge, which the R.O.W. is wide enough for two tracks. There are a few places south of the tunnel (besides Dyes) where it is wide too. The area around Sanitaria Springs comes to mind. Was this double iron, or sidings pre-TCS?

Again, many thanks, Gordon!
"Welcome all ye who enter; the show that never ends. Tingfield Sperminal Railway." (Graffiti on the entry to Mohawk Yard Office)
Engineer Spike
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:24 pm

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby march hare » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:56 pm

Regarding the elevation of tracks through Cobleskill, the Cobleskill Water Department has extensive photo coverage of this project from the late 1930s. The local newspaper has run several photos from this collection over the years.

One interesting observation is that the ground elevation around the Cobleskill station was raised as part of the project. Not sure how the depot itself was affected--ie did they raise the building a bit?

That crossing that is now the Rte 7 overpass at the east end of town must have been a safety nightmare in the days before the grade elevation. Bad sight lines, highly angled crossing, and heavy traffic on both the RR and road.
march hare
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:44 pm
Location: upstate NY

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby ChiefTroll » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:00 pm

Engineer Spike wrote:This most recent trip has spawned a few more questions for Mr. Troll. This deals with the north and south sides of Belden Hill. I know that double iron ran up to Harpursville Bridge (which I hate going over. It had a 10mph restriction for a while, until half-assed repairs brought it up to 25mph.). It looks like there are several spots south of the bridge, which the R.O.W. is wide enough for two tracks. There are a few places south of the tunnel (besides Dyes) where it is wide too. The area around Sanitaria Springs comes to mind. Was this double iron, or sidings pre-TCS?


Spike - The A&S from Harpursville (old VI Cabin) to Shay (old SA Cabin) was never double-track. It once had several more sidings than Dyes, including Tunnel (south of the tunnel in the east side) and Sanataria Springs. I don't have an old time table handy to tell you the car lengths of the sidings.

As for the bridge, your opinion on the quality of the repairs is incorrect. It had a few cracked stones in the pedestals under the columns, which were properly corrected with new concrete pedestals. The flood of several years ago also affected the foundation, but I don't remember the details. That has also been corrected. I can understand the problems of handling a northward train at 10 mph on the bridge. By the way, the bridge was reinforced with center columns and trusses to handle the H-class 0-8-8-0 engines used as pushers, and again with more steel for the 1500's. It rates.

- Gordon Davids
ChiefTroll
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:51 pm
Location: Severna Park, MD

Re: Mileposts question.

Postby Engineer Spike » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:30 pm

I don't know if Mr. Davids still looks here, but I have a question about the 4th. Sub. First, someone told me that the bridge over the South Bay, Lake Champlain was once a drawbridge. Any truth?

The second is about pre-TCS sidings. It looks like one may have been around MP 81-82. Another looks to have been south of Monkey St., around MP 182. Any other ghosts besides post TCS ones removed, like Port Henry, and W. Chazy?

There was another post about doing a survey about closing crossings. There are 3-4 which come to mind near Chazy. When was this done?
"Welcome all ye who enter; the show that never ends. Tingfield Sperminal Railway." (Graffiti on the entry to Mohawk Yard Office)
Engineer Spike
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:24 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Delaware & Hudson

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest