Proposed Locomotives

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Re: Proposed Locomotives

Postby Sir Ray » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:15 pm

According to this interesting thread on the MR forums Diesels Catalogued, but not Built, there were a decent number:

B18-7
U33CG
U18C-North American extension of the U18B
U56
U18BT
U15BT
U33CG
B40-8(B)
C23-7
B28-7
C28-7
B23-8
B33-7
C33-7
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Re: Proposed Locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:17 pm

Of the ones on Sir Ray's list...
The B28-7 and C28-7 were in GE's catalogue. (They were designs based on the FDL-12 engine: predecessors to what were finally built as B30-7A and C30-7A.) They are covered in the GE operator's manual available at George Elwood's "Fallen Flags" rail image site. (I've said it before, but not for a few weeks, and it bears repeating: Elwood's site is a MARVELOUS resource for those of us interested in railroads and their history, and we are very lucky to have it!)

I see U33CG listed twice: I can think of THREE designs GE could have built in that area:
1) Steam generator-equipped unit in standard hood-type carbody (looking essentially like the U36CG later built for NdeM),
2) Similar, but with full-width "cowl" carbody (so looking much like the U30CG built for ATSF), and
3) a freight unit, with no steam generator, built with a cowl carbody (so probably also looking much like the U30CG).
There is a GE promotional pamphlet about the U33 line (available either from George Elwood's site or at Will and David Davis's http://railroadlocomotives.blogspot.ca/ ) which mentions the "U33CG" as an option: it doesn't specify whether this would have been (1) or (2); my guess is that GE would have been happy to build either, and might not have distinguished between them in model designation. As to (3), the Santa Fe was interested, in the late 1960s, in acquiring a fleet of cowl-bodied freight locomotives and solicited bids: EMD, Alco, and GE all entered bids, with GE's being a cowl-carbody U33C (and EMD's F45 being the only one actually built). ... Interestingly, Santa Fe asked for bids on cabless B-unit versions as well as A-units: EMD and Alco both bid for B units as well as A, but GE refused to, apparently thinking that part of one order from the Santa Fe wasn't worth the extra engineering involved!

As for the B40-8(B)... GE wasn't interested in this, but the Santa Fe, after getting its initial GP60M and Dash8-40W units (sixty from each builder) asked about B-units as a follow-on. EMD was happy, and provided 23 GP60B. GE, on the other hand, apparently told Santa Fe "If you REALLY, REALLY want them, we'll build B units for you... but there will be no price reduction." So Santa Fe instead got a second order of 23 "B40-8W." ... If it had looked as if other railroads would have jumped on the bandwagon and that a cabless 4,000 hp 4-axle unit would sell in the hundreds instead of the dozens, GE might have been more interested...

As for the (domestic) U18C... When the Union Railroad (a U.S. Steel switching road in the Pittsburgh PA area) was thinking about replacing its fleet of EMD-reengined BLW units in the 1970s, it was reported (in "Trains") that they had spoken to GE about the possibility of a "U18C". Alas, Union ended up getting MP15 units from the competition instead.
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Re: Proposed Locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:51 pm

Of course, T.J.'s question was about unbuilt GE LOCOMOTIVES, not unbuilt GE DIESEL locomotives! Over the years GE undoubtedly proposed many electric locomotives that didn't sell: either to railroads with existing electrifications or as parts of proposals for new electrifications. Somewhere on this forum (the thread title mentions both an unbuilt locomotive and a new traction motor type) is a thread about a GE proposal to the Milwaukee in ?? 1960s ?? to replace their elderly electric locomotives with a modern type.
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Re: Proposed Locomotives

Postby Typewriters » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:01 pm

Actually the U33 series sales brochure couldn't be clearer about the U33CG. It's pictured as a conventional road switcher.

We're quite proud of the fact that all of the railfan-derived "woulda - coulda - shoulda" has been exorcised from that exchange going on over there. Only locomotives that --- get this --- were actually announced by the manufacturer, or appeared in a product catalogue or sales brochure, or for which specifications were issued but were not actually built are included in the list.

By doing this we've made many corrections and omissions.. and also made some great discoveries about locomotives ACTUALLY offered but never built, as opposed to crazy railfan-imagineered things that make no economic or engineering sense. For example, we've turned up an original ALCO specification for a 5000 HP C-C diesel-hydraulic... the follow-on to the DH-643 which was to be known as the DH-650. You find great things when you don't settle for "maybe" and you keep digging until you're in possession of the facts.

-Will Davis
Moderator- Steam Locomotives forum

http://www.railroadlocomotives.blogspot.com
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Re: Proposed Locomotives

Postby v8interceptor » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:51 pm

Sir Ray wrote:According to this interesting thread on the MR forums Diesels Catalogued, but not Built, there were a decent number:

B18-7
U33CG
U18C-North American extension of the U18B
U56
U18BT
U15BT
U33CG
B40-8(B)
C23-7
B28-7
C28-7
B23-8
B33-7
C33-7

That from the "Trains" Magazine forums. Same publisher as Model Railroader of course..
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Re: Proposed Locomotives

Postby v8interceptor » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:00 pm

In the development of the HDL-16 engine used in the AC6000CW (from which the GEVO-12 engine is derived); GE built and tested an 18 Cylinder version of the engine rated at 7,000 BHP. Although this was just a static testbed and never was installed in a prototype locomotive they apparently were seriously considering offering an AC7000 model (which would probably having been rated at 6,750 HP for traction).
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Re: Proposed Locomotives

Postby MEC407 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:38 pm

An HDL-18, had it made its way into full production, might have been a pretty good seller in the stationery power industries (where Alco 18-251s can still be found, despite their lack of success as a locomotive power plant).
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Re: Proposed Locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:09 pm

The HDL (as the lawyers no doubt remember fondly, since things ended up in the courts) was a joint project of GE and Deutz: Deutz was supposed to handle sales for stationary and marine applications, but I think the scheme was that V-ingines (12, 16 and 18 cylinders) would be built at Grove City. I think Deutz has continued with the thing, increasing the cylinder bore to 260mm and maybe adapting it for natural gas fuel: there may BE Deutz V-18 HDL derivatives in service somewhere.

I recall reading somewhere that the 7,000 hp V-18 was thought to be perhaps a good competitor against some large-cylindered Caterpillar design for s. and or m. applications. ... Since Burns Night is coming up, let me just say: The best-laid plans of mice and men...
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