Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

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bikentransit
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by bikentransit » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:11 am

Funny how we live in a region with a paralyzed transit system because of stupid county commissioners. Bucks county is just as bad.
Why do other places have such success with building/expanding while this region enjoys dismal failure?

loufah
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by loufah » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:17 pm

bikentransit wrote:Funny how we live in a region with a paralyzed transit system because of stupid county commissioners. Bucks county is just as bad.
Why do other places have such success with building/expanding while this region enjoys dismal failure?
What do the commissioners give as reasons? Are their citizens actually clamoring for transportation to jobs in Philadelphia (which has an unemployment rate of 8.4%, the highest of large cities in the northeast), or are the jobs more local (in Exton, Wayne, and King of Prussia)?

NorthPennLimited
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by NorthPennLimited » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:48 pm

Don't forget Horsham, Radnor, and Conshohocken. They are still expanding with office space.

Financial and Pharmaceutical jobs seem to be thriving in the burbs.

Suburban Station
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by Suburban Station » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:54 pm

82% of all office construction in the region taking place in UC. It's no surprise that the cover to their report featured a crane.
http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/w ... rsity-city" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NorthPennLimited
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by NorthPennLimited » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:41 pm

Yea, a 20 story hospital office building, a 5 story proton therapy research building, etc. kinda throws off the Bell Curve.

It's amazing all the construction going on down there around Penn and CHOP.

Looks nothing like the old footprint when the civic center was still standing.

bikentransit
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by bikentransit » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:04 pm

loufah wrote:
bikentransit wrote:Funny how we live in a region with a paralyzed transit system because of stupid county commissioners. Bucks county is just as bad.
Why do other places have such success with building/expanding while this region enjoys dismal failure?
What do the commissioners give as reasons? Are their citizens actually clamoring for transportation to jobs in Philadelphia (which has an unemployment rate of 8.4%, the highest of large cities in the northeast), or are the jobs more local (in Exton, Wayne, and King of Prussia)?
Duh last time I checked, center city was bursting at the seams. Maybe you didn't hear about the new tower going up next to Comcast that will be taller than the Comcast tower, which is next to and integrated with Suburban Station. Gee, no need for expanded rail cover there.

Office parks in the burbs will become a thing of the past as traffic congestion chokes out growth. Only the city can handle it. Actually, given how people are flocking back to the city, it would behoove us to figure out ways to get more transit through the throat of the city (i.e. more MFL service), or more city based regional rail stops (like Girard Ave and a real North Broad Station) that city residents can use. Maybe it would be better to not connect Quakertown with Philly. If those far exurbs are so flush with jobs, perhaps more of the new jobs in the city can go to city residents.

25Hz
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by 25Hz » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:24 am

http://onthemap.ces.census.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Zoom in to abot 50 percent to get a better idea of road density vs rail desnity, and population numbers vs those two other figures.

Then there is this useful tool, which is the same data that planning committees use to plan things like rail extensions.

http://www.census.gov/censusexplorer/ce ... uting.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Especially look at "drove alone" in the drop-down menu.....

Have fun with that & get back to me with where you think RRD should expand next. ;)
Next stop the square, journal square station next!

Suburban Station
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by Suburban Station » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:15 am

NorthPennLimited wrote:Yea, a 20 story hospital office building, a 5 story proton therapy research building, etc. kinda throws off the Bell Curve.

It's amazing all the construction going on down there around Penn and CHOP.

Looks nothing like the old footprint when the civic center was still standing.
outside of conshohocken there hasn't been much action, there is plenty of available space in the traditional office parks.

25 hz...west chester is where the next RRD extension should go. If we can't do that one then forget the rest

NorthPennLimited
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by NorthPennLimited » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:15 am

I'm going to respectfully agree to disagree.

Funds are scarce. REAL SCARCE.

The rate of return to West Chester are nil. You basically have to rebuild thr line west of Elwyn from scratch. Once the line is rebuilt, the 40-50mph line will offer the same travel time from Exton.

I'd take that new start money, and put into a congested corridor with no rail options like Pottstown, Telford. Somewhere the tax dollars can compete with a highway and bring in good ridership numbers.

By no means, am I saying West Chester isn't a worthy cause. I think the college has a good chance of filling some off peak seats on the trains.

Suburban Station
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by Suburban Station » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:11 pm

Likewise I'm going to respectfully disagree. Telford? Its less than a third of the population and less than half the density. Not happening. Pottstown? Also should be done but needs to be rebuilt. West chester? Does it make sense to make sense to not serve it? It's about 11k people per sq mile, it's the only county seat not served by rail, it's on septa owned right of way, and it's going to be trip time competitive with nearby options that require driving to overcrowded lots. By serving the borough directly you free up spaces on the main line and reduce vmt. Perhaps if you were to suggest routing the main line to the borough instead of low density places like exton I could buy it. Money is that scarce, for less so than competence in regional planning here

SCB2525
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by SCB2525 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:53 pm

About the lowest hanging fruit in terms of cost efficiency to benefit would be a 1 to 2 station extension of the Warminster branch and an extension to an as yet undecided terminus on the Bethlehem branch.

Do not read this as me saying the other projects mentioned aren't worthwhile.

Suburban Station
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by Suburban Station » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:58 pm

Not sure about Warminster but quakertown made a good but of sense. I'd certainly support a plan to go to pottstown, west chester, and quakertown. Adding od pairs is exactly what the system needs (along with more frequent off peak service).most cost effective? I've only seen cost estimates for quakertown. I want to say pottstown was 250 million?

SCB2525
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by SCB2525 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:14 pm

Suburban Station wrote:Not sure about Warminster but quakertown made a good but of sense. I'd certainly support a plan to go to pottstown, west chester, and quakertown. Adding od pairs is exactly what the system needs (along with more frequent off peak service).most cost effective? I've only seen cost estimates for quakertown. I want to say pottstown was 250 million?
That was pre PTC and all high-level station mandate.

Suburban Station
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by Suburban Station » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:46 pm

SCB2525 wrote:
Suburban Station wrote:Not sure about Warminster but quakertown made a good but of sense. I'd certainly support a plan to go to pottstown, west chester, and quakertown. Adding od pairs is exactly what the system needs (along with more frequent off peak service).most cost effective? I've only seen cost estimates for quakertown. I want to say pottstown was 250 million?
It wasn't before high level platforms but it might have been before ptc. Might be easier to run an amtrak service to reading as they deal with ptc 9 host railroads a lot more. West chester is all septa though except wcrr which operates at septas discretion

CComMack
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Re: Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Post by CComMack » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:29 pm

The problem with Warminster-Ivyland is that it's purely parking arbitrage. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with parking arbitrage; in isolation, that's what Wawa is. But Wawa is also a down-payment on West Chester, whereas there's sprawl and not much else beyond Ivyland, until you get all the way to New Hope. What Ivyland has going for it is that it is very small, and so it seems much more plausible that we could shake the trees in Harrisburg and/or Washington and get it funded. But if you want to maximize the percentage return on investment dollars (regardless of source), you really want a dense, walkable destination around your new station, not a parking lot. That means West Chester, and that means Lansdale-Quakertown (Lansdale-Pennridge doesn't do so bad, either, with all the in-between towns).

I went to West Chester for their Rail Restoration Committee's Open House, which was my first time in the borough in about a year and a half. There were no surprises at the meeting for me other than the absence of opposition. However, I was astonished at the sheer volume of new construction going up in and around Downtown West Chester. I'm going to go on record now and say that, whenever West Chester gets done, more people than anybody has predicted yet will be going to West Chester from the east.

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