SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby jamesinclair » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:42 pm

ChesterValley wrote:I've been stranded on multiple trains for 2 hours, which is always fun when Amtrak has a delay or some other hiccup on the Paoli line. The R5 train from Thorndale though Doylestown lasts from 4:50 am to 730 am in the morning with multiple thorough runs lasting through the day, even with the crew change at suburban that's still a long haul. Furthermore SEPTA needs to do something to compete with Uber/lyft, bathrooms would be a very attractive amenity assuming they maintain them properly


Good point, bathrooms can be critical in times of service failure.

Id note that Caltrain was having the same debate 1-2 years ago.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby ExCon90 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:47 pm

"... assuming they maintain them properly." That's been the problem all along. SEPTA has no facilities for servicing restrooms (I don't think the PRR or RDG ever had anything more than dry hoppers on their MU's) and there would probably be considerable expense involved in providing them. It will probably take a serious delay, with an incident that gets into the newspapers, to produce enough pressure -- and money -- to change things.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby ryanov » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:10 am

There are plenty of time one wants a bathroom. For example, needing one after heading out but not wanting to miss a train over it. Or having no time before and after the train trip, but having 40 mins sitting around doing nothing.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby NorthPennLimited » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:21 pm

Conrail has a “honey wagon” truck that travels around to Morrisville, Stony Creek Yard, Port Richmond, and Millville to pump out the holding tanks on the locomotives held captive on local shifters that can’t get to the engine house at Camden on regular intervals to service the toilets.

It also holds sand for sanding locomotives.

So the infrastructure isn’t THAT expensive to service toilets. It COULD be done if there was a necessity.

I also saw the same type Honey Wagon truck on NS servicing locomotives at Abrams and Morrisville. Not sure what CSX does for toilet servicing outside the hub in Philadelphia. It was a white Peterbilt with a thoroughbred on the cab door.

A quick internet search found this truck that Hulcher uses if SEPTA wants to sub-contract lavatory service on its trains.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby ChemiosMurphy » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:55 pm

There's no way a honey-wagon on rubber wheels could service an entire fleet hundreds of passenger cars. A few locomotives, sure, but not an entire fleet.

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but there's not a snowball's chance in hell Septa could keep bathrooms clean on trains considering what a disaster a static, non-moving Suburban Station is. Anyone care to pass the Febreeze?

Poo aside, the one thing that would be great with the possible MLV fleet is access to stations with short platforms. It always sucks to have passengers trudge through other cars to alight at their respective stations, especially when the conductors don't tell people that their door won't open. Cramming more people in fewer cars will help servicing short platforms.

The full back length seats on the MLV's are much more comfy that the Jeep Wrangler-esque backseats on the S4's.

The USB A chargers should be promptly struck from the new MLVs. They'll suffer the same fate of absolute obliteration like those at PHL. Two 120v outlets would do wonders for road warriors on laptops before/after work. Besides, public USB ports are a vector for malware, I always bring a wall-wort with me.

I hope Septa can fund these. Comfy seats, no middle seat, and increased reliability... Win win win.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby zebrasepta » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:25 pm

idk if SEPTA is gonna get rid of the bells on these if they ever got them at all since they started using the bells more on their push-pull sets and on the ACS-64s
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby sammy2009 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:06 am

Just looked at the capital budget for 2020 and these vehicles are mentioned in the budget with the budget price that NJT has. There is also a rendering of what the MLV EMU will / might look like. Slightly different.
Page 63. I couldn't post the image. http://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/fy-2020-cap-budget-2020-2031-program-proposal.pdf
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby CNJGeep » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:33 pm

sammy2009 wrote:Just looked at the capital budget for 2020 and these vehicles are mentioned in the budget with the budget price that NJT has. There is also a rendering of what the MLV EMU will / might look like. Slightly different.
Page 63. I couldn't post the image. http://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/fy-2020-cap-budget-2020-2031-program-proposal.pdf


That is the rendering for the CRRC cars.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby rcthompson04 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:42 pm

CNJGeep wrote:
sammy2009 wrote:Just looked at the capital budget for 2020 and these vehicles are mentioned in the budget with the budget price that NJT has. There is also a rendering of what the MLV EMU will / might look like. Slightly different.
Page 63. I couldn't post the image. http://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/fy-2020-cap-budget-2020-2031-program-proposal.pdf


That is the rendering for the CRRC cars.


It seems like some cars will come into service in the 2025-2031 timeframe, but most are in the 2031-later timeframe. More indication that this is a longer term project is the references to some substantial overhauls of the Silverliner IV. I do not ride them that much (my morning run usually has Silverliner V and I almost always on push-pull equipment in the evening), but they seem to keep soldier on somehow.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby sammy2009 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:01 pm

CNJGeep wrote:
sammy2009 wrote:Just looked at the capital budget for 2020 and these vehicles are mentioned in the budget with the budget price that NJT has. There is also a rendering of what the MLV EMU will / might look like. Slightly different.
Page 63. I couldn't post the image. http://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/fy-2020-cap-budget-2020-2031-program-proposal.pdf


That is the rendering for the CRRC cars.


The rendering for the CRRC are completely different from this. Much different.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby mcgrath618 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:01 am

sammy2009 wrote:
CNJGeep wrote:
sammy2009 wrote:Just looked at the capital budget for 2020 and these vehicles are mentioned in the budget with the budget price that NJT has. There is also a rendering of what the MLV EMU will / might look like. Slightly different.
Page 63. I couldn't post the image. http://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/fy-2020-cap-budget-2020-2031-program-proposal.pdf


That is the rendering for the CRRC cars.


The rendering for the CRRC are completely different from this. Much different.


That is what they'll look like though, at least according to photos we have of the shells.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby sammy2009 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:47 am

mcgrath618 wrote:
sammy2009 wrote:
CNJGeep wrote:
sammy2009 wrote:Just looked at the capital budget for 2020 and these vehicles are mentioned in the budget with the budget price that NJT has. There is also a rendering of what the MLV EMU will / might look like. Slightly different.
Page 63. I couldn't post the image. http://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/fy-2020-cap-budget-2020-2031-program-proposal.pdf


That is the rendering for the CRRC cars.


The rendering for the CRRC are completely different from this. Much different.


That is what they'll look like though, at least according to photos we have of the shells.


I've learned a few things within the last few hours. Designs aren't always fully on point once the contract is awarded. Substantial changes happen over time. I kept looking at the shells and was trying to figure out what the deal was and its confirmed they are those indeed. I jumped the gun...but i actually like this design much better honestly.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby JeffK » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:39 am


That makes for interesting reading - also sobering, when you see what may not happen if the state can't/won't come up with a more robust funding scheme.

Slightly off-thread, but conspicuous by its absence in the 2025-31 range is any mention of replacing or even rehabbing the P&W N-5s. They'll be pushing 40 years old plus if (big IF) the K of P spur is actually running by that time they'll also be getting a good deal more use.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby mcgrath618 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:00 pm

JeffK wrote:

That makes for interesting reading - also sobering, when you see what may not happen if the state can't/won't come up with a more robust funding scheme.

Slightly off-thread, but conspicuous by its absence in the 2025-31 range is any mention of replacing or even rehabbing the P&W N-5s. They'll be pushing 40 years old plus if (big IF) the K of P spur is actually running by that time they'll also be getting a good deal more use.

I think the cost of the KOP spur weirdly called for buying 6 more?
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby JeffK » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:22 pm

mcgrath618 wrote:I think the cost of the KOP spur weirdly called for buying 6 more?

Yes, that was in one of the more recent formal documents. I agree it seems very weird, for at least a few admittedly naïve reasons:

- Ordering an add-on of N-5s would be essentially creating brand-new 1990s cars (although SEPTA's rarely had qualms about rebuilding in kind, :P)

- Buying a new design for just 6 cars would give them two sets of different equipment to maintain for an indefinite timeframe.

- The existing cars will probably start to wear out in the 2030s. That means they'd have to be replaced not too many years after the spur opens so why not do so pre-emptively? While the N-5s are nowhere near as long in their teeth as the Bullets, we all saw what happened when management tried to squeeze "just a few more years" * out of aging equipment.

* "Just one more little tiny thin mint, M'sieur??"
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