SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

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SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby Fan Railer » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:29 am

https://www.njtransit.com/AdminTemp/12_ ... Agenda.pdf?

ITEM 1812-72: RAIL ROLLING STOCK PROGRAM: PURCHASE OF 113
MULTILEVEL III PASSENGER VEHICLES AND CONTRACT
AMENDMENT FOR ENGINEERING ASSISTANCE

WHEREAS, the cost of the purchase for 113 Multilevel III Vehicles, including other
passenger amenities and spare parts, is $669,072,335, with 14 vehicle options to purchase
up to an additional 636 Multilevel III Vehicles (and an additional 250 Multilevel Vehicles
intended for SEPTA), which would be subject to future board authorization and when fully
exercised, would be for a total contract value of $3,612,861,685
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby BuddCar711 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:14 am

Looks like NJ Transit is doing away with MUs. But anyway, why would SEPTA piggyback on a NJ Transit order since they already have an order of Multilevels either in production or gearing for production?
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby R3 Passenger » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:41 am

The interesting part is this (emphasis added by me):

WHEREAS, the purchase of 113 new Multilevel III Vehicles, consisting of 58 Power Cars, 33 Cab Cars, 16 Trailer Cars and six (6) Restroom-equipped Trailer Cars, will allow NJ TRANSIT to modernize and improve the versatility and reliability of the rail fleet; and

WHEREAS, the Multilevel III Vehicles will be compatible and interoperable with the in-service multilevel vehicles to create self-propelled EMU trains, a single unified fleet that can operate without locomotives, and can be configured based on customers’ needs; and

WHEREAS, the Multilevel III Vehicles will combine EMU and Push-Pull technology to create a hybrid consist that has more redundancy and reliability with lower costs and maintenance requirements;


I remember a contributor on here stated that with EMU service with close stops, "it is all about the take-off and the landing." Multilevels are heavy. No question. But, with SEPTA's RR stops so close together, the benefit of EMUs are lost on the amount of time and energy needed to accelerate and decelerate a train of these mixed consists. They would not be able to get up to speed. If ALL the multilevels were powered,then maybe it can be pulled off. But, it appears that these "Power cars" will not be built with cabs. Add in the space that would be needed for the transformer, and the space needed for the cab and ADA accessibility, and are you really getting more seats over a traditional single level EMU?

I am all for Multilevel EMUs, but I want to see the designs and numbers first. Until then, I am skeptical.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby CNJGeep » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:22 am

BuddCar711 wrote:Looks like NJ Transit is doing away with MUs. But anyway, why would SEPTA piggyback on a NJ Transit order since they already have an order of Multilevels either in production or gearing for production?

These will be Multilevel MU cars. The CRRC cars currently on order are traditional locomotive hauled cars. It looks like SEPTA is going to hitch their pony to this insane carriage when the time comes to replace the GEs.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby ChemiosMurphy » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:10 pm

CNJGeep wrote:[The CRRC cars currently on order are traditional locomotive hauled cars. It looks like SEPTA is going to hitch their pony to this insane carriage when the time comes to replace the GEs.


Wouldn't a capital expense like this require a bid of some sort or did that already happen?
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby mcgrath618 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:47 pm

Looks like Bombardier also got the contract. Awesome news.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby CNJGeep » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:31 pm

ChemiosMurphy wrote:Wouldn't a capital expense like this require a bid of some sort or did that already happen?

If they're picking up an option, I don't think so. MARC didn't have to put bids out when they piggybacked onto the second NJT Multilevel order. I'm no expert, but I seem to recall reading that purchasing another agency's option is a way to go around the bidding requirements.

For right now, it's moot anyway, since SEPTA is already on the record stating that there has been no type of funding identified.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby Backshophoss » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:32 pm

Hopefully BBD will get NJT to get Next Gen Arrows instead of the MLV II based design EMU's,the "must be able to tow MLV II Coaches"
requirement will sink this idea fast.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby mcgrath618 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:31 pm

Interesting to note is that SEPTA has been planning for this for some time now:
http://www.septa.org/service/rail/impro ... rades.html
Investigating long-term financing options to advance procurement of Silverliner VI cars to replace Silverliner IV fleet

This was last year. Maybe they have done more than we think?
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby blockline4180 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:51 pm

Backshophoss wrote:Hopefully BBD will get NJT to get Next Gen Arrows instead of the MLV II based design EMU's,the "must be able to tow MLV II Coaches"
requirement will sink this idea fast.



There is still time for that?? Thought this order was a done deal or has BBD not designed it.? Im assuming this is still in the planning stages as I didn't see any drawings or mockups.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby blockline4180 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:18 pm

Backshophoss wrote:Hopefully BBD will get NJT to get Next Gen Arrows instead of the MLV II based design EMU's,the "must be able to tow MLV II Coaches"
requirement will sink this idea fast.



Looks like its a done deal. Arrows gone by 2022.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wWG4GhScBL0&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3hT05qih7kMPG7oRShrVSkW-xRGZr5vcud5mPwbz5w9u1mmJAK2_QDEts
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby sammy2009 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:16 am

I've been following this for a few days even before i found out SEPTA was listed. Since i did find out that SEPTA was listed, i do find that this will be BEST for them to do. The silverliner 4's are almost at the end of their useful life as is the Arrows. This would be easier on SEPTA without going through the design, bidding process, and red tape and possibly going with a manufacturer whom they favor and know that design is pretty much a proven design. NJT/SEPTA needs are similar in many ways. This also leads me to think that they both have been in communication of some sort to possibly go half on the order since their oldest cars are the same age and are the backbone of their railroad operations.

SEPTA could kill two birds with one stone
*Addressing Increasing Ridership
*New Vehicles

CRRC also bidded for the NJT order but im not sure that NJT is required to follow the "Buy America" because its a state agency ? Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

I have seen the design for the MLV III cars and its impressive naturally , looks like the regular ones with just the panto-graph. And i don't think SEPTA will have bathrooms on these bad boys.
I'm thrilled if SEPTA piggybacks on the order
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby andrewjw » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:34 am

The renders are quite impressive. It looks like the power cars will be missing all the mid-level seating and the secondary doors on both ends.
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby mcgrath618 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:31 pm

sammy2009 wrote:CRRC also bidded for the NJT order but im not sure that NJT is required to follow the "Buy America" because its a state agency ? Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

I think it's less of that and more of NJT's existing relationship with Bomby and (apparently) their need for these MUs to be able to tow normal ML cars.
IIRC, SEPTA wouldn't have to follow such a law because it's half state, half private, correct?
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Re: SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

Postby zebrasepta » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:29 pm

I wonder if these will have any height issues on SEPTA and also what would the naming for these would be and knowing SEPTA they'll probably take out the bathrooms.
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