Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

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Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby NIMBYkiller » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:53 pm

Apologies if this has been asked here previously; I am not a frequent visitor to the Septa page. Is there anything structural that precludes tracks 0, 5, 6, and 7 from being extended eastward? I'm curious as to whether or not those tracks could be extended to Camden and then hooked into the south jersey rail network to bring commuter service to an area or two (without having to take the grand tour of North Philly). Obviously they'd have to dive down to get under the tracks that are RR east of Market East station, but I'm guessing there's not much in the way that couldn't be relocated (ie, utility infrastructure). Suburban Station though, I'm not sure as I'm not familiar with it (haven't been there in at least 7 years).
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby ChemiosMurphy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:21 am

You're going to need a bigger tunnel. Not happening.
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby mtuandrew » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:55 am

Good idea though, right? South Jersey really ought to have the kinds of solid connections to Philly that North Jersey does to NYC.

Maybe it’ll happen during some future president’s Infrastructure Week :wink:
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby MACTRAXX » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:53 am

NK and Everyone:

Sometime back in the 2000s (I believe that is when this occurred) a train slammed into the bulkhead wall at the east end of Track 0 at Suburban Station.
The hole in the wall behind the bumper block is still visible - so there is at least precedence to extending one of the Suburban Station stub tracks east :wink:

Back to topic: There is no need to extend Tracks 0,5,6 or 7 further east. Had that been deemed necessary it likely would have been part of the Center City
Commuter Connection project back during the years 1979-1984...MACTRAXX
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby mcgrath618 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:22 pm

The regional rail isn't the best option for SEPTA service to south Jersey atm.
I would venture that an extension of the BSL into Jersey would be more realistic and cost efficient.
I also have been saying for years that at this point it would make more fiscal sense for NJT to hand over the ACL to SEPTA. From there you could have some other lines branching off, but that is a decade off from even being considered at best.
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby ChesterValley » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:32 pm

I'd wager it would be more cost effective to continue the Patco tunnel to West Philadelphia
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby NIMBYkiller » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 pm

I'm just looking to understand whether or not it is physically possible for those tracks to be extended eastward? And yes, obviously it would require 2 new tunnels (one on either side of the existing tunnel). But physically speaking, is there anything specifically barring this from being physically possible?
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby bikentransit » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:47 pm

Why bother? They already have PATCO and a few bridges. I doubt the demand is there to run RR trains to jersey. If there was, the ACL wouldn't be rusting away right now.
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby mtuandrew » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:08 pm

ACL isn’t the prize, it’s the Jersey-side suburbs that I think ought to have one-seat rail service to PHL via Camden. With the service levels the Pennsylvania suburbs have, and the service levels seen by North Jersey, it’s... well, not stunning, but frustrating that there isn’t a reasonable level of commuter rail service to South Jersey points.
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby TWTRTECH » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:24 am

Here is an idea, I mean it's a start anyway. shift two stub tracks slightly north towards Arch street then continue east under Arch street as far as possible. there is already a short piece of tunnel under Arch street that isn't being used I believe near tenth street. just an idea.
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby BuddCar711 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:46 am

TWTRTECH wrote:Here is an idea, I mean it's a start anyway. shift two stub tracks slightly north towards Arch street then continue east under Arch street as far as possible. there is already a short piece of tunnel under Arch street that isn't being used I believe near tenth street. just an idea.


Problem is that the tunnels under Arch Street were built to Broad Street Subway dimensions, which would mean a low ceiling. You would need a taller tunnel just to accommodate the height of a Silverliner IV railcar (let alone the clearance for the catenary). The tunnels would have to be rebuilt.
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby TWTRTECH » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:52 pm

BuddCar711 wrote:
TWTRTECH wrote:Here is an idea, I mean it's a start anyway. shift two stub tracks slightly north towards Arch street then continue east under Arch street as far as possible. there is already a short piece of tunnel under Arch street that isn't being used I believe near tenth street. just an idea.


Problem is that the tunnels under Arch Street were built to Broad Street Subway dimensions, which would mean a low ceiling. You would need a taller tunnel just to accommodate the height of a Silverliner IV railcar (let alone the clearance for the catenary). The tunnels would have to be rebuilt.

You are right, the tunnel would need to be modified, but that is only two blocks or so. the hard part would be digging the rest of the tunnel.
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby JeffK » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:58 pm

ChesterValley wrote:I'd wager it would be more cost effective to continue the Patco tunnel to West Philadelphia

I agree, but in typical Philly fashion the idea's been popping up since the 1970s and never gotten past the "gee, it would be a good idea" stage. No civic or political will and no money. </cynicism>
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby ekt8750 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:28 pm

I know adding traffic on the Delair Bridge isn't the wisest of things but it is there and the infrastructure is already in place to run a passenger rail system in South Jersey. There is currently a ROW and rail that connects the ACL to the freight side of the River Line. From there, there you have the Vineland and Beasley's Point Secondaries as well as what's left of the Grenloch Branch (I know 2/3 of it is now trails and is the least shovel ready of the three lines but could have the most biggest return on investment).
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Re: Extending the stub end tracks at Suburban Station

Postby bikentransit » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:37 pm

Can we get to Wawa first?
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