Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby Blackstreet » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:54 am

Did i see someone just mention the folding K-car doors?

That's another thing i liked about the Kawasaki vehicles, the folding, separating doors that are either tan or black from the inside. I also like how on top of each door, there is some kind of logo or name inscribed inside a diamond??? :confused: IDK, next time i'm on the trolley, i think i might take a picture of it.

I'm gonna miss how the single-faced K-cars have the two tan doors on the side to the right, which the double-faced K-cars lack since their doors are on either side near the driver seats.
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby JeffK » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:11 am

Franklin Gowen wrote:The twin-car CTA El sets arrived in 1986. That was an interesting (read: very weird) time on the P&W, and the shape of things to come until 1993.

60-series and 200-series Brills were both still in revenue service in 1986. Both types were reduced in numbers after the horrific set of collisions extending across both 1985 and 1986 had violently ( :( ) thinned their ranks, hence the urgent need for Chicago rolling-stock to pinch-hit until the N-5 order could be constructed.

Franklin, thank you for rubbing the rust off the rails of my brain! I'm recovering from a bad cold and didn't really feel up to a lot of research, hence hiding behind "IIRC".

JeffK wrote:The official farewell charter excursion was run that summer. By October 1990 only one of the two die-hard Bullets remaining (number not available) was still operational, but at that point I recall that either one or both cars were already withdrawn from revenue service. I do not recall exactly when those final two Bullets were removed from the property for scrapping.

There's a preserved Bullet at the Electric City Trolley Museum in Scranton, PA. They equipped it with trolley poles for museum excursion service. It might still be operable; someone who's been there recently would have to confirm.

They have #206. According to the museum, SEPTA used it as a pickle car until 1995 but there was nothing to indicate whether it was the last revenue-service Bullet. I visited the ECTM and Steamtown maybe 5 or 6 years ago. At least at that time 206 was only on static display outside and didn't have poles. Sadly it was looking a bit weather-worn.
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby ekt8750 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:40 am

JeffK wrote:
Franklin Gowen wrote:The twin-car CTA El sets arrived in 1986. That was an interesting (read: very weird) time on the P&W, and the shape of things to come until 1993.

60-series and 200-series Brills were both still in revenue service in 1986. Both types were reduced in numbers after the horrific set of collisions extending across both 1985 and 1986 had violently ( :( ) thinned their ranks, hence the urgent need for Chicago rolling-stock to pinch-hit until the N-5 order could be constructed.

Franklin, thank you for rubbing the rust off the rails of my brain! I'm recovering from a bad cold and didn't really feel up to a lot of research, hence hiding behind "IIRC".

JeffK wrote:The official farewell charter excursion was run that summer. By October 1990 only one of the two die-hard Bullets remaining (number not available) was still operational, but at that point I recall that either one or both cars were already withdrawn from revenue service. I do not recall exactly when those final two Bullets were removed from the property for scrapping.

There's a preserved Bullet at the Electric City Trolley Museum in Scranton, PA. They equipped it with trolley poles for museum excursion service. It might still be operable; someone who's been there recently would have to confirm.

They have #206. According to the museum, SEPTA used it as a pickle car until 1995 but there was nothing to indicate whether it was the last revenue-service Bullet. I visited the ECTM and Steamtown maybe 5 or 6 years ago. At least at that time 206 was only on static display outside and didn't have poles. Sadly it was looking a bit weather-worn.


Rockhill Trolley Museum has #205 preserved and operational. It too has been fitted with trolley poles. http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/roster/205
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby ConstanceR46 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:50 pm

Kid. We all like certain cars. But at the end of the day, K-Cars are a burden and, most importantly, are not ADA compliant. "I'll miss them" is never a argument any railroad (aside from museum outfits) will take into account, especially when they are cars that have trouble and aren't okay for disabled people. No amount of foam will make relatively oddball cars that are 40 years old viable to keep running.
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby JeffK » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:32 am

ConstanceR46 wrote:Kid. We all like certain cars. But at the end of the day, K-Cars are a burden and, most importantly, are not ADA compliant. "I'll miss them" is never a argument any railroad (aside from museum outfits) will take into account, especially when they are cars that have trouble and aren't okay for disabled people. No amount of foam will make relatively oddball cars that are 40 years old viable to keep running.

VERY well said. And welcome to the SEPTA thread of the forum!
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:32 pm

Had the 1981 Kawasakis been given a midlife rebuild, would it have been possible to remove the center door post in favor of a single folding leaf door, which could work with mini high boarding? Or would it have compromised the body shell or structure?
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby dowlingm » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:21 am

ConstanceR46 wrote:Kid. We all like certain cars. But at the end of the day, K-Cars are a burden and, most importantly, are not ADA compliant. "I'll miss them" is never a argument any railroad (aside from museum outfits) will take into account, especially when they are cars that have trouble and aren't okay for disabled people. No amount of foam will make relatively oddball cars that are 40 years old viable to keep running.
we have the same issue in Toronto. High floor cars that foamers want retained but have a mean travel between failures of 1,000-4,000 km depending on model and season (winter hammers the old cars). While the new Bombardiers are not achieving what was promised, 10,000-15,000 km between failures is a huge improvement. Meanwhile people with suitcases and strollers and assistive devices can access transit with far fewer barriers and hindrances.
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby ExCon90 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:03 pm

That's an important point. Low-floor cars speed up boarding and alighting for all passengers with even minor disabilities (like aging knees) as well as those with bulky luggage or baby carriages, thus expediting the service for everybody. Some years ago I read that either Amsterdam or Rotterdam, when considering low-floor cars, borrowed one from Bremen and ran it in regular service. The car consistently reached the end of each run on the heels of its leader, which had left the origin point 10 or so minutes ahead of the Bremen car, meaning that if they went to low-floor cars they could run the same level of service on a given line with one less car.
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby silverliner266 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:57 pm

ExCon90 wrote:That's an important point. Low-floor cars speed up boarding and alighting for all passengers with even minor disabilities (like aging knees) as well as those with bulky luggage or baby carriages, thus expediting the service for everybody. Some years ago I read that either Amsterdam or Rotterdam, when considering low-floor cars, borrowed one from Bremen and ran it in regular service. The car consistently reached the end of each run on the heels of its leader, which had left the origin point 10 or so minutes ahead of the Bremen car, meaning that if they went to low-floor cars they could run the same level of service on a given line with one less car.


It even speeds up boarding for people with no disabilities at all, climbing stairs takes time. It's the same argument for high level platforms on regional rail.
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby Myrtone » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:58 pm

ExCon90 wrote:That's an important point. Low-floor cars speed up boarding and alighting for all passengers with even minor disabilities (like aging knees) as well as those with bulky luggage or baby carriages, thus expediting the service for everybody. Some years ago I read that either Amsterdam or Rotterdam, when considering low-floor cars, borrowed one from Bremen and ran it in regular service. The car consistently reached the end of each run on the heels of its leader, which had left the origin point 10 or so minutes ahead of the Bremen car, meaning that if they went to low-floor cars they could run the same level of service on a given line with one less car.

Amsterdam has gone for 100% low floor, which is what the disabled tend to prefer.

Image

Rotterdam has gone for almost 100% low floor. I couldn't find a decent photo of the Rotterdam Citadis interior so I have one of a Lyon Citadis.

Image

Note the steps to each side of the aisle.

Diagram of an Amsterdam Combino. Note the short carbody sections and color contrasted doors.

Image

EDIT:
The fact is that just because a rail transit vehicle is A.D.A compliant doesn't mean it's okay for the disabled people. Why else do the requirements change over time? To be okay for the disabled, there should be no steps anywhere in the floor area, the doors should be painted a different colour to the main body scheme. For example, if the main livery is white, the doors should be painted black. And the door alarms should sound at least three seconds before the doors begin to close. And if stops are further apart, the new vehicles will also need to stop at all stops regardless.
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby ConstanceR46 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 pm

Citadi? are a great choice IMO. They can work for the isolated segments that tend to be located on SS lines, have a large, common parts base, and are okay for disabled people- 2/3 things are impossible for K-Cars. Every city has foamers, ExCon. The point of contention with NYC is either A. Bringing the 9, a pointless service, back, or B. getting rid of the 1 billion times more ergonomic than their predecessors M-7 and R-160/R142 cars because muh duct taped r-40slants were 10 times better. On a funnier note, i wonder if they could use re-manufactured K-cars on the heritage line...
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby zebrasepta » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:32 pm

I think I can see a problem with the new trolleys, what's gonna make the riders pay?
Are they gonna gate the trolley stations or have someone on board to collect the fares with SEPTA key or are they gonna make it inconvenient for everyone make the riders scan at the front?
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby Myrtone » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:43 pm

ConstanceR46 wrote:Citadi? are a great choice IMO. They can work for the isolated segments that tend to be located on SS lines, have a large, common parts base, and are okay for disabled people- 2/3 things are impossible for K-Cars. Every city has foamers, ExCon. The point of contention with NYC is either A. Bringing the 9, a pointless service, back, or B. getting rid of the 1 billion times more ergonomic than their predecessors M-7 and R-160/R142 cars because muh duct taped r-40slants were 10 times better. On a funnier note, i wonder if they could use re-manufactured K-cars on the heritage line...

In my city, we've had problems with our Citadis L.R.Vs on our legacy network, nearly all other customers for the Citadis have been those that have built new systems in the last 30 years. I don't get most of this. Also, no version of the Citadis is 100% low floor as far as I know, but most versions do come close to it.
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby andrewjw » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:53 pm

zebrasepta wrote:I think I can see a problem with the new trolleys, what's gonna make the riders pay?
Are they gonna gate the trolley stations or have someone on board to collect the fares with SEPTA key or are they gonna make it inconvenient for everyone make the riders scan at the front?

I expect they'll move to PoP like the Muni trolleys. This is what it looks like they're moving towards on regional rail, with the Caltrain-style activators.
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Re: Septa, please keep the K-cars in service!

Postby ConstanceR46 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:04 pm

Myrtone wrote:In my city, we've had problems with our Citadis L.R.Vs on our legacy network, nearly all other customers for the Citadis have been those that have built new systems in the last 30 years. I don't get most of this. Also, no version of the Citadis is 100% low floor as far as I know, but most versions do come close to it.


What city is it? I said citadi would be a good choice because they're the sort of LRV-Tram design that usually works well isolated and in streets.
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