DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

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DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby zebrasepta » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:29 pm

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/new ... /98325318/
A longtime proposal to run commuter trains between Newark and Perryville, Maryland, took a step forward this week after transportation planners submitted preliminary results of a feasibility study to officials in Delaware, Maryland and Pennsylvania.

It is the first formal examination looking into demand for increased rail transit across the Delaware-Maryland state line, said Dave Gula, planner at the Wilmington Area Planning Council. Results will be made public after officials from DART, Maryland's commuter rail agency MARC and the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority have a chance to meet, likely next month, he said.


“Having MARC meet SEPTA in Newark … we think it’s a slam dunk,” Gula said. “At the moment, you have very few choices from Newark, how to get down to Baltimore.”

Extending SEPTA south into Maryland, however, is also a possibility, Gula said.

The 20-mile stretch of track between Perryville and Newark is the only segment of the Northeast Corridor between Washington and New York City that lacks commuter rail service.

Since MARC has their own thread topic about this, can we keep this discussion SEPTA related?
I doubt SEPTA would run the 20 extra miles south into Maryland
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby tgolanos » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:52 pm

I have to agree that it's doubtful SEPTA would run into Maryland, but you never know. I think it's more likely that MARC will introduce service into Delaware and SEPTA will reschedule trains to meet MARC's.

Side question: since DART provides funding to SEPTA to run the trains, does DART also control the scheduling or is that all on SEPTA?
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby MACTRAXX » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:28 am

Everyone:

If DelDot and Maryland MTA are willing to fund an extension to meet up at some point between
Newark and Perryville I can see SEPTA running into Maryland provided they "show SEPTA the
money" (remember the movie "Jerry Maguire"? :wink:)

There would need to be a designated break point in both service extensions:
Does MARC run to Newark and Wilmington?
Does SEPTA run to Elkton and Perryville?

Stay tuned,folks. This subject could become very interesting and let's hope a compromise can be
worked out and this service link becomes reality.

MACTRAXX
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby zebrasepta » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:09 am

MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone:

If DelDot and Maryland MTA are willing to fund an extension to meet up at some point between
Newark and Perryville I can see SEPTA running into Maryland provided they "show SEPTA the
money" (remember the movie "Jerry Maguire"? :wink:)

There would need to be a designated break point in both service extensions:
Does MARC run to Newark and Wilmington?
Does SEPTA run to Elkton and Perryville?

Stay tuned,folks. This subject could become very interesting and let's hope a compromise can be
worked out and this service link becomes reality.

MACTRAXX

If SEPTA does run into Maryland for passenger service, it would be the only Regional Rail system that travels into 4 states, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby Limited-Clear » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:54 pm

If Septa operates into MD will they go over the mileage limit for running without bathrooms, I believe there is a a requirement set and currently all Septa lines are under that limit.
The managers in their ivory tower know more and more about less and less, and end up knowing everything about *&$% all
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby Quinn » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:48 pm

zebrasepta wrote:If SEPTA does run into Maryland for passenger service, it would be the only Regional Rail system that travels into 4 states, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland


The SEP part of the name becomes the minority! They will have to add some letters. :-D
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby STrRedWolf » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:54 pm

Limited-Clear wrote:If Septa operates into MD will they go over the mileage limit for running without bathrooms, I believe there is a a requirement set and currently all Septa lines are under that limit.


This is the first time I heard there was an official limit (I've heard a few instances on MARC when they had to shut off bathrooms of making bathroom stops). Can you point to the FRA regulation? I'm interested in what the limit is. I'm glad MARC does have bathrooms on their fleet (both ends, including cab cars).

Here's what will need to happen, though, if SEPTA wants to run all the way through to Perryville (expanded from the other thread):

  • Expand the tracks between BACON and PRINCE to four tracks... in fact, you might as well four-track it DC to New York. There's a ton of areas that are only two track wide.
  • Rebuild Perryville and Newark to high-block standards. Perryville especially since right now, it's low block single platform as all 5xx MARC trains turn there.
  • Rebuild Wilmington so that it can turn a MARC train (3 tracks and two are dedicated Amtrak).
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby khecht » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:32 pm

While there are no doubt Philadelphia and Wilmington commuters that could benefit from SEPTA stops in Elkton and Perryville, I have to think it's more likely that MARC would go to Newark or Wilmington than SEPTA would go to Perryville alone, or overlap MARC down to Perryville. Presumably most folks in Cecil County MD would commute to Baltimore rather than Philly.

While filling this gap in commuter service would create a "low cost" way along the PRR portion of the NEC from DC to NYC, it would be a four train trip.- MARC to SEPTA Newark Line to SEPTA Trenton Line to NJT. Still, that may be useful for folks looking to get to some of the local stops along portions of the route or stations that Amtrak serves infrequently such as Aberdeen and Newark.

As to the physical plant, I agree that the two-track sections could create bottlenecks for Amtrak, and while some of the long term NEC visionary plans do add a third or fourth track in some areas, I don't think small extensions of commuter service will alone be the trigger for such investments. As to MARC potentially going to Wilmington, they could turn trains at the Wilmington Shops and even wye then there if Amtrak were to get on board with the idea.
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby Rockingham Racer » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:50 am

zebrasepta wrote:
MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone:

If DelDot and Maryland MTA are willing to fund an extension to meet up at some point between
Newark and Perryville I can see SEPTA running into Maryland provided they "show SEPTA the
money" (remember the movie "Jerry Maguire"? :wink:)

There would need to be a designated break point in both service extensions:
Does MARC run to Newark and Wilmington?
Does SEPTA run to Elkton and Perryville?

Stay tuned,folks. This subject could become very interesting and let's hope a compromise can be
worked out and this service link becomes reality.

MACTRAXX

If SEPTA does run into Maryland for passenger service, it would be the only Regional Rail system that travels into 4 states, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland


Send this statement to Alex Trebek for a future Jeopardy show... :P
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby STrRedWolf » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:05 pm

khecht wrote:While there are no doubt Philadelphia and Wilmington commuters that could benefit from SEPTA stops in Elkton and Perryville, I have to think it's more likely that MARC would go to Newark or Wilmington than SEPTA would go to Perryville alone, or overlap MARC down to Perryville. Presumably most folks in Cecil County MD would commute to Baltimore rather than Philly.


Now that I think about it, there is one other way, if SEPTA and MARC are willing to split the difference: Rebuild and reopen Elkton as a four-track station, MARC/SEPTA only. Extend the fourth track from IRON down through the station to the next switch, which will need to be rebuilt into a full interlocking (name it ELKTON). MARC and SEPTA trains turn there. Connect the existing bridge over it (MD-268) to the station for full crossover and ADA compliance.

The only issue there now is the two track nature between PRINCE and BACON, and the single platform at Perryville (although Martin State Airport is also single platform but runs both directions.)

While filling this gap in commuter service would create a "low cost" way along the PRR portion of the NEC from DC to NYC, it would be a four train trip.- MARC to SEPTA Newark Line to SEPTA Trenton Line to NJT. Still, that may be useful for folks looking to get to some of the local stops along portions of the route or stations that Amtrak serves infrequently such as Aberdeen and Newark.


Not only that, it serves as a backup if Amtrak breaks down. MARC's known to rescue Amtrak train passengers at times.
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby andegold » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:32 am

NJT serves four states as well although technically CT is served by Metro-North using NJT equipment (for football games).
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby Suburban Station » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:49 pm

khecht wrote:While there are no doubt Philadelphia and Wilmington commuters that could benefit from SEPTA stops in Elkton and Perryville, I have to think it's more likely that MARC would go to Newark or Wilmington than SEPTA would go to Perryville alone, or overlap MARC down to Perryville. Presumably most folks in Cecil County MD would commute to Baltimore rather than Philly.

While filling this gap in commuter service would create a "low cost" way along the PRR portion of the NEC from DC to NYC, it would be a four train trip.- MARC to SEPTA Newark Line to SEPTA Trenton Line to NJT. Still, that may be useful for folks looking to get to some of the local stops along portions of the route or stations that Amtrak serves infrequently such as Aberdeen and Newark.

As to the physical plant, I agree that the two-track sections could create bottlenecks for Amtrak, and while some of the long term NEC visionary plans do add a third or fourth track in some areas, I don't think small extensions of commuter service will alone be the trigger for such investments. As to MARC potentially going to Wilmington, they could turn trains at the Wilmington Shops and even wye then there if Amtrak were to get on board with the idea.

It is "low fare" as opposed to "low cost"
The best way to serve the market is a low fare Philadelphia-Baltimore service with limited stops (but more than a typical Amtrak train) including Elkton. It would be maintained at Penn Coach yard and turned at BAL and 30th St Station. It should be cheaper to run and carry more riders than transferring in a smaller location.
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby Acela150 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:13 pm

Limited-Clear wrote:If Septa operates into MD will they go over the mileage limit for running without bathrooms, I believe there is a a requirement set and currently all Septa lines are under that limit.


As a Septa Conductor please show me that... Cause some of the jobs you work as far as miles go would beg to differ with that statement.
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby ekt8750 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:47 pm

Acela150 wrote:
Limited-Clear wrote:If Septa operates into MD will they go over the mileage limit for running without bathrooms, I believe there is a a requirement set and currently all Septa lines are under that limit.


As a Septa Conductor please show me that... Cause some of the jobs you work as far as miles go would beg to differ with that statement.


The rule applies to passenger miles.
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Re: DART/MARC/SEPTA to meet for possible extension to Newark

Postby STrRedWolf » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:47 pm

ekt8750 wrote:
Acela150 wrote:
Limited-Clear wrote:If Septa operates into MD will they go over the mileage limit for running without bathrooms, I believe there is a a requirement set and currently all Septa lines are under that limit.


As a Septa Conductor please show me that... Cause some of the jobs you work as far as miles go would beg to differ with that statement.


The rule applies to passenger miles.


What FTA or FRA rule is that?
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