R8 Newtown Service Restoration Efforts

Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

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Postby glennk419 » Sun May 21, 2006 5:15 pm

SCB2525 wrote:[Which I have and makes me wonder why those in Bryn Athyn (Pitcairns) would rather have massive amounts of traffic to Philadelphia come down 232 when a restored Newtown line could cut a chunk out of it.


If it were up to the Pitcairn's, 232 would still be a horse path.
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Postby nittany4 » Fri May 26, 2006 11:24 am

apparently there was more than one "diamond" on the Newtown line

http://www.ectma.org/hja_photos/pcc014.jpg

GREAT PTC pics

http://www.ectma.org/adamcik.html

cheers
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Postby glennk419 » Fri May 26, 2006 11:56 am

Wow, what a great picture. I always knew that the trolley ran into Fox Chase but had never seen a picture of the crossing before. You can still see some of the remaining trolley poles at the loop just before Five Points.
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Postby nittany4 » Fri May 26, 2006 2:52 pm

was that streetcar line single tracked (long headways) or was the return on some other road? on the photograph, it appears to be a two-way street. is it the current 26 bus line?
Last edited by nittany4 on Fri May 26, 2006 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby glennk419 » Fri May 26, 2006 4:26 pm

Today's Rt 26 bus runs from Germantown and Olney to FTC via Tabor Road. The closest to the old trolley route would be the 24, although it runs via Central Avenue to Cottman and not along Oxford Avenue.
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Postby amusing erudition » Fri May 26, 2006 6:44 pm

glennk419 wrote:Today's Rt 26 bus runs from Germantown and Olney to FTC via Tabor Road. The closest to the old trolley route would be the 24, although it runs via Central Avenue to Cottman and not along Oxford Avenue.


The route 18 bus east of Chelten Ave. runs exactly on the old 26 trolley route (Olney to Rising Sun to Oxford). It even uses both of the old trolley loops for turnbacks: Rising Sun at Knorr and Oxford at Loney.

According with the various maps at phillytrolley.org along with my small personal collection of materials, the line was double tracked at some point before being abandoned above Knorr loop in the 1950s.

Also, while I know "diamond" is the term for this type of grade crossing, "diamond" itself as a shape is usually a rhomboidal lozenge, i.e. with equal sides. But this crossing would have had unequal sides, two of standard gauge and two of broad gauge. Perhaps someone should coin a new term for such.

-asg

ADDENDUM: As long as I can get people's attention, does anyone have access to or know where I could find a copy (paper or electronic) of SEPTA's current streetcar track map, that is, track that they could run on tomorrow if they wanted to (including track that may be unpowered). Sorry for being off topic; it doesn't seem to warrant a new thread. Send me an e-mail if you've got anything, thanks. -asg
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Postby jfrey40535 » Sat May 27, 2006 9:15 pm

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Postby Lucius Kwok » Wed May 31, 2006 9:49 pm

Maybe you guys should do your own feasibility study.
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Postby jfrey40535 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:37 pm

I thought it was a no brainer. I still can't believe money got funneled into this. Any idiot could figure out that BRT is not the solution.

Who is going to ride a bus to Willow Grove station, get off the bus, and get on a half packed train and fight for seats with the Willow Grove regulars?

What are the odds that SEPTA would increase capacity to accomodate busloads of Newtownites being deposited at Willow Grove?

If the bus has to run on a regular road to get to the train station, its not rapid anymore now is it?

One funny thing which shows Bryn Athen is still keeping the line shut, a guy at the meeting told me they probablly would have to build a bridge over the R3 at Ayers since a grade crossing "wasn't safe" (huh????), and building a bridge isn't feasible, so they won't run the bus to Fox Chase. Read: Bryn Athen doesn't want buses in their neighborhood.

The 1995 rail feasibility study also cites landowner objections as one of many obstacles hindering efforts to restore rail service.

We don't need another study. Rail has already been studied. Maybe we should study helicopter shuttles next since the NIMBY's don't want trains or buses.

What we need is some politician to say: look move this line forward, don't study, build!

I think next meeting we should show up with our own powerpoint presentation with lots of facts and pictures about the Riverline. That's just one option, but its a good example of a new start with positive effects. Our ideal restoration is full electrification. What is so hard to understand about that?
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Postby amusing erudition » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:42 pm

jfrey40535 wrote:Maybe we should study helicopter shuttles next[...].


I think you've finally found a plan the Pitcairns would support.

So long as they got the contract.

-asg
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Postby PARailWiz » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:41 pm

amusing erudition wrote:
jfrey40535 wrote:Maybe we should study helicopter shuttles next[...].


I think you've finally found a plan the Pitcairns would support.

So long as they got the contract.

-asg


And the flight path went via New Jersey...
The picture to the right is a photo of Silverliner I 246 located at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg, PA.
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Postby DickyDunn » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:49 pm

jfrey40535 wrote:Who is going to ride a bus to Willow Grove station, get off the bus, and get on a half packed train and fight for seats with the Willow Grove regulars?

What are the odds that SEPTA would increase capacity to accomodate busloads of Newtownites being deposited at Willow Grove?

If the bus has to run on a regular road to get to the train station, its not rapid anymore now is it?

One funny thing which shows Bryn Athen is still keeping the line shut, a guy at the meeting told me they probablly would have to build a bridge over the R3 at Ayers since a grade crossing "wasn't safe" (huh????), and building a bridge isn't feasible, so they won't run the bus to Fox Chase. Read: Bryn Athen doesn't want buses in their neighborhood.


I'm new here, but I've been hooked on the message board. I've spent almost every night for the past three weeks going through posts much later at night than I really should. Great comments from everyone.

The guy from the Public Spirit article hit it on the head when he was quoted as saying something to the effect of "no one from this area is going to want to take a bus." Why park the Hummer or Lexus to get downtown? That's ultimately what will not make this line happen.

As far getting on a half-packed train...I don't think an average morning train is that packed with Warminster and Hatboro passengers. Frey is right, though, it's not that speedy to travel on regular roads.

I was at the meeting and it seemed to me like Willow Grove wasn't high on their list for a junction with the two services. The only way it would make it worth its while is if SEPTA goes ahead with a plan to intregate it's proposed new station with the Willow Grove downtown redevelopment.
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Postby DickyDunn » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:04 pm

PARailWiz wrote:
amusing erudition wrote:
jfrey40535 wrote:Maybe we should study helicopter shuttles next[...].


I think you've finally found a plan the Pitcairns would support.

So long as they got the contract.

-asg


And the flight path went via New Jersey...



Not helicopters, boys. Autogyros!

Image
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Postby amusing erudition » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:18 pm

Yeah, I know the autogiros. Doesn't work as well for the humor though and it was good enough to get you to know what I meant. Let me extend my welcome to you, Mr. Dunn.

As to some of the above comments, while I agree with most of them, just because something is running on streets doesn't mean it can't be more rapid than a standard bus. Obviously limited stops would make something go faster, if not fast. It's still a ridiculous idea because it would be slower than rail and require a transfer and use of a (ugh) bus.

As to the grade crossing at Ayres, not only would it be safer than a standard road crossing (because of trained drivers and limited traffic mostly), but there are substandard ones are all over that line anyway (Welsh, Moredon, Fetters Mill being the closest) because of limited sight distance or a road intersection at the crossing. Referencing the Pittsburgh system, there is a rail/busway grade crossing in Carnegie on the West Busway. There is a bridge on the East Busway over the parallel NS line (when it switches which side of the rail line it's on). Both work just fine. One was way more expensive; let's guess which.

-asg
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Postby jfrey40535 » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:08 am

We still have a trolley line that crosses heavy rail. Its not a big deal. Its smoke for "we can't run through Bryn Athen".
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